Comment by meelash | Hacker News Reader

Comment by meelash | Hacker News Reader

I have an honest question to ask, since the number of comments hasn't exploded here, I hope some thoughtful people can see it and answer. Please don't attack me for anything I may be implicitly saying; this is honestly something I'm confused about regarding the culture in which this event took place, and from which I am an outsider.

A number of people have taken great pains to emphasize that the behavior of the lady involved was not justification for an unwanted advance and that men should all understand this. Now I understand 100% that if she clearly and explicitly rejected his kiss advance, it was obviously wrong to go further (all of this is theoretical/alleged but ignore that for a moment).

Let's consider just the kissing portion and nothing beyond that.

Now, isn't sitting on people's laps and flirting exactly inviting this kind of advance? I mean isn't that exactly the point of those behaviors? To excite the passion of people it's being done to and who are watching?

It's very strange for people to vehemently deny this. It's like if I was a biologist of another race observing human kind, what would I identify through observation as the beginning steps in the mating ritual? So why is an impression being given that that kind of behavior is "having fun" and has nothing to do with sex, and trying to attract the opposite sex?

Again, let me state- I don't drink, I don't go to parties like this, I've never been to a bar or a club or a girl's hotel room. So please don't assume I know the answer and I'm trying to imply the answer through these questions. I really just don't understand how you can hold this idealistic view of mankind that a member of one sex should enflame the passion of the opposite sex, through activities and clothing with deliberate, intentional sexual overtones and then expect people to overcome their natural, biological response to that kind of show.

Comments, please?

In the absence of power imbalances (doctor/patient, teacher/student, police/suspect etc), I think in general it's acceptable to make the first part of a first move if you have reason to believe that it is welcome - it becomes crystal clear whether it is or not very quickly. But obviously, the instant that rejection occurs, anything other than a sincere apology for misunderstanding the signals is unacceptable. It's a bit embarrassing, but you get over it :)

As for this (theoretical/alleged/etc etc) story - it doesn't sound like the guy even had reason to believe that his first move was welcome. She had flirted with a couple of other guys, and sat on a few laps due to the lack of seating in the hotel room. As someone with a lot of female friends and who has been at a lot of drunken parties, I can say that this sort of thing is common, lots of fun, but NOT an invitation for any random guy within the group to make a move. There's a big difference between general flirty fun across a group and a girl specifically and exclusively flirting with a single guy. It can take a while and a few mistakes to learn to tell the difference. Especially if you have spent more time on your computer than with friends as a child/teen and you haven't yet realised that the way these things happen on TV aren't how they happen in real life (yes, I am speaking from experience ;D ).

Pro tip for my fellow geek guys: Don't hit on the geek girl. Focus on being awesome. If there's a chance, she'll hit on you. If not, you still get to be awesome.

> Let's consider just the kissing portion and nothing beyond that.

I did not get that she had a problem with the just kissing part: everyone might get the wrong impression in some situation, it is somewhat understandable (plus movies make spontaneous kisses appear romantic). Heck, maybe he even had a crush on her? Anyway, in a normal encounter, she says "no", embarrassment all around but no real harm done. The problem was that, apparently, he did not take "no" for an answer.

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There are obviously biological differences between the sexes and it would be a disservice to pretend there are none when trying to establish codes of behaviour. In this particular case it is rather irrelevant, though.

People are not animals, acting upon instinct and physical inputs alone. Our laws, societal norms, and mores are all based on the fact that, while we are animals underneath, a critical part of what makes us human is that we don't have to act on every urge that comes to mind.

Is there an opportunity for people to get confused and read mixed signals? Absolutely. Did they in this case? I don't know. From the little I have read, it does not sound to me like it was a case of "she was totally leading me on, then was shocked when I followed."

Regardless, as a man in that situation, I would be extremely careful. It is far to easy to get into trouble with the law in situation that somebody is leading you on, then turns off. Personally, I don't want a felony assault on my record, regardless of whether I'm "right" or not.

Bullshit?

There are people who enflame my passion to hit them with a clue-by-four, through activities and writing with decidedly incendiary overtones, and yet I'm perfectly fine without hitting them, too.

Is the idea that "non-conensual == not OK" that hard to grasp for males? I don't think so.

As someone who does go to parties, if some girl were sitting in laps and laying across people, etc., she should not be surprised if a guy makes a move.

Now, the guy should have known she was probably not specifically interested in him, since she was sitting in EVERYONE'S lap (this is analogous to other things a man or woman can do with everybody...)

And, as you mentioned, he had no right or logical reason to make the move down south. If someone did that at a party I was at to one of my female friends, he'd get socked in the face and thrown on the concrete.

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In short, you're absolutely right, IMO.

I really just don't understand how you can hold this idealistic view of mankind that a member of one sex should enflame the passion of the opposite sex, through activities and clothing with deliberate, intentional sexual overtones and then expect people to overcome their natural, biological response to that kind of show.

All the other men she was hanging out with were able to do it. Speaking for myself only, maybe you are different: raping a woman has never crossed my mind, even when my "passions were enflamed". It's not something I have had to overcome.

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