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Comment by mtw | Hacker News Reader

There are videos where you see chinese doing metal work with made up tools and just improvising it, like a group of rednecks. There are also high-tech factories in China where robots and tight QA control are used. "Brady" here tried to cut corners and bypassed the trust process that is absolutely required in Chinese business. In American business, you spend time and money in lawyers (post-business), in Chinese business, you spent time and money selecting, vetting partners (pre-business) and building trust with them until you know for sure they will view you as their "family". It doesn't mean you can't get quality crankshafts from China, they produce aircraft from modern commercial aircraft competing with Airbus to fifth generation fighters.

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> "Brady" here tried to cut corners and bypassed the trust process

That's a somewhat gilded spin on the simpler truth, which is that in Chinese business it's shockingly easy to find hucksters willing to take your money for "work" with no real intention of producing a usable product. That is, he got "crankshafts" like he ordered, their work is done and it's on to the next mark.

Sure, a "trust process" can be a useful workaround for that problem. So can a functioning legal system that enforces that such criminals can't actually make money from their shenannigans.

But the root problem is that one system allows these people to run amok in the "legitimate" business climate and one doesn't.

FWIW: I don't buy for a minute that this has anything to do with chinese "culture". The problem here is that the PRC is a wild west environment that has no way for a foreign entity (local powers have more tools) to enforce a meaningful legal contract.

Sure, a "trust process" can be a useful workaround for that problem. So can a functioning legal system that enforces that such criminals can't actually make money from their shenannigans.

You just said what the gp post said in a different order. Both processes are at play here in both the US and China. I've met guys who did work for someone in the US, who then turned around and said, "You want to get paid? Sue me!" Yes, brazen as that.

That said, it can be argued that using legal mechanisms may be more reproducible and sustainable long term, than having charismatic people running around having relationships with everyone who must perform at a high level to ensure quality. Again, both are at play in both cultures, but having more of the mechanistic legal side may well allow for better scaling.

One thing that may make a difference between China and the US is the degree of independence of the judiciary, the degree of the rule of law, and checks and balances on the government. If the government gets up to too many shenanigans in the US, people will call them out, using principles, frameworks, and processes which are already laid out. In principle, you can't get jailed for doing this. It's in our rights to be able to hold the government to account. In China, there's just far less independence of the judiciary, less independence of the press, and more latitude for the government to pragmatically do what it wants. This means that crooked actors who want to bribe themselves into a little immunity have a more favorable market.

This is what you always have to ask yourself in any such context, government or corporate: Is concentrated power having its way with the public? Is there a way for people to call it out, or is dissent suppressed? Are people in power playing by rules, or are they making it up as they go along?

FWIW: I don't buy for a minute that this has anything to do with chinese "culture".

This is the big bone of contention between me and my chinese wife. She requested to me that I tell an outright lie about how we met on a dating site, so her coworkers don't rib her. I would rather just never lie, short of something like saving the life of an innocent from evil people. She seems to think my position is extreme and unreasonable.

> I've met guys who did work for someone in the US, who then turned around and said, "You want to get paid? Sue me!" Yes, brazen as that.

I don't see how that logic is responsive. Obviously "it happens" anywhere in the world. The point was about frequency. I mean, sure, fraud like that by a machine shop probably happens in the US, but in the US it's fraud, which is a crime, and people go to jail for it. (Not to mention the fact that a machine shop that tried this would be sued for at least the liquidation value of its equipment, which is not insubstantial). So it's rare.

In China it's so common it's become a meme. It happens all the time, so much so that there's a posited "trust process" that exists to counter it. But obviously (seriously, obviously) that process doesn't work as well, because fraud is common there and rare here.

That's just silly. The Rule of Law works better than palm greasing and back watching, and to argue otherwise is just ridiculous. (And in context, holding up the PRC as an example of a libertarian wonderland is hilariously so).

(And your culture point makes the same logical mistake in reverse, assuming that since one chinese woman told a white lie and her husband was truthful that you can extrapolate honesty to a whole population. Again, frequency matters!)

Maybe I'm not reading correctly, but you keep on roaring on, as if you are saying something completely different than the comments you're replying to. Please re-read. We are actually saying the same things. No one is denying that there's more of certain kinds of fraud in China. No one is disagreeing with you that Rule of Law works a lot better in the US, nor has anyone suggested that personal relationships work better than Rule of Law. All I'm saying -- and this is something I go on about consistently -- is that cross cultural differences are commonly seen as differences in kind, when they are actually differences in degree.

I don't think you are thinking clearly and really understanding the terms you are using if you interpret a "bribery market in corruption" as some kind of "libertarian wonderland." No libertarian worth listening to would advocate for an environment without accountability and rule of law.

You've got things so near to 180 degrees turned around, it's a bit of a wonder and maybe a wee bit worrying.

No one actually says the things you're trying to put into other people's mouths. There, you're merely displaying your biases and what axes you're grinding. All I can offer is a factual account of my own anecdotal experience.

(In other words, I'm trying to have a nuanced discussion here, while you seem to be operating on the assumption that everyone's polarized at either extreme.)

I wish I could find the article, but I read an excellent write up of Chinese manufacturing by an expat fixer a couple years ago.

The suggestions were basically: (1) don't think about manufacturing in China unless you visit the factory, owners, and engineers; (2) preferably, have someone onsite during manufacturing runs to do initial QA and refuse delivery if required; (3) assume the other party will cut costs anywhere you permit them to; (4) assume quality will drift cheaper, even if the previous batch was perfect.

A good friend does some manufacturing there for his business, and spends about half of the year over there coordinating.

So, yeah, some random order off the internet from another country? Routed through Taiwan? You're not going to have a good time.

Chinese companies like Comac can produce airframes roughly comparable to Airbus, however they're still struggling with engines. It will be interesting to see if AECC succeeds in building a turbofan with fuel efficiency and reliability comparable to western designs. Without a good engine they don't have a viable airliner.

Comac is not even close. With the ARJ21 they have the old DC-9 tooling, a brand new wing from the Ukrainians (Antonov), engines from General Electric, and they still can't get it certified in Europe or the US. Even Chinese airlines don't want it.

The C919 is even further behind.

Pretty sure all those Chinese high-tech factories' robots are either bought from Germany, japan, or Taiwan.

Don't get me wrong, Chinese do manufacture these robots too，but from the Chinese news reports I've read, the durability just isn't there, and they relies on either Germany or Japan for key parts.

And the vast majority of the manufacturing work (SMT, FATP, etc) in China is still done by hand at factory cities like QSMC.

Quality control is left up to the customer's oversight into the Factory's processes, and factory materials such as test fixtures or robots are usually bodged together using equipment that is so far out of whack with the task, its tantamount to using a sledgehammer as a pair of tweezers. I have literally seen SMT assembly work being done with a chisel soldering tip that is nearly five times larger than the components being soldered.

You want robots? Be prepared to write the software to drive them yourself and provide the hardware. Its nuts.

Just about any nation which has undergone large-scale industrialisation started off copying someone else.

Swiss watches? Developed by British and French watchmakers escaping religious persecution in their home countries.

Japanese cameras and other consumer electronics? Started off as cheap knock-offs of Western products.

You learn a lot from importing technology and using it to copy stuff until you reach a level of skill where you realise you can do this just as well as the original makers.

That is the point where you start looking into other barriers to market share - like poor QC, dodgy reputation etc. (Also, that is probably the point where you start designing and building your own assembly lines, too.)

I'm simply pointing out a fact, which isn't my imagination, I've worked in Japanese high tech PCB plant in China and saw first hand what the reality is, according to the Chinese who went to the company's Japan operation to study, the Japanese made better products using older equipment.

Chinese bullet train technology was bascially bought from Germany and Japan, and I've read mutiple times that they know how to manufacture it by designs (still rely on those two for some key parts), but don't know how to improve it coz don't know why.

But the propaganda made it sound like China invented it, and it's so advanced.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't try to say you were wrong, just to elaborate a bit on your observation.

Anecdotally, once we had a couple of Chinese auditors in the workshop (Scandinavia) to assess the quality of a delivery we were about to make to a Chinese government agency.

Once they were satisfied that key parts - motors, pumps, power electronics - were made anywhere but China, they really only had two further questions - 'Where do we sign?' and 'When is lunch?'

Camera-wise the Japanese and the Soviets got a bunch of tech from the Germans after WW2. I'm sure the Chinese can (and probably will) eventually get to the point where their manufacturing is highly regarded. To some extent that's already happened as the lowest quality tier manufacturing is being shifted to India and Vietnam.

But precision manufacturing is extremely difficult. There were a couple comments musing about aviation stuff. Let's put it this way. Russia is very good at certain types of manufacturing (e.g. rockets) to the point that NASA uses Russian rockets to launch its satellites. Russia (and Ukraine) have a ton of experience manufacturing airplanes (military and airliners). More recently, Sukhoi even managed to churn out a highly competitive, well received regional jet (the Superjet 100). Yet sales are lagging while Bombardier and Embraer dominate that market. Reliability is almost there, but there's next to no support. Without a support network you're dead in the water. To that end it appears that the Russians are taking this far more seriously than I'd expect the Chinese to. So beyond just manufacturing the part, there are cultural issues to overcome.

The Japanese are another example. Most people in this thread probably hold Japanese manufacturing in high regard (and for good reason). However, take a look at Mitsubishi. They're attempting to get in on the regional jet market as well. However, they're basically dead in the water and may end up scrapping the whole project. While there is a Japanese aviation industry, and Boeing partners heavily with some Japanese companies, the Japanese have never built a jet airliner and airliners are simply that complex.

So, sure, we'll eventually see more Chinese cars and higher quality Chinese consumer electronics. Sooner than later even. Aviation stuff? Maybe, but potentially not in my lifetime.

Passenger jet is not only a matter of wether you can produce it, what's most important is wether it's cheap to fly, otherwise no one other than Chinese state airliners would buy it.

With or without the robots, it still comes down to process control which isn't a real concern by a lot of the fly-by-night suppliers in China.

They want to make money, and make it fast, when you ask them whether they can produce it, they are not gonna let the business slip away.

Don't know it? Hire someone. No equipment? Borrow or lease. No plant? Find one. Still can't make it? Place an order to someone who can.

FWIW: I don't buy for a minute that this has anything to do with chinese "culture".

I've seen one of those videos. In it, a group of chinese workers were forging a huge ring. There was indeed something "rednecky" about it, but as far as I could tell as a layman, they were legit forging the part. It's just that instead of all of the robot arms and mechanisms moving the metal around inside a factory (the next video was some German factory doing some similar part) they were using a crane and a forklift outdoors in a dirt yard. OSHA inspectors would crap their pants, but to me it looked like they were doing the same operations.

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