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Detroit News Vehicle of the Year is a Tesla

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123 pointsrmason139 comments

We sold our vehicle because the monthly payment, insurance, gasoline, and parking costs were adding up to about $1000 a month.

I planned on downgrading from an Infiniti to a 3 year old Honda Civic or Fit.

I visited three dealerships in my area. The experience was horrible at all three. I consider myself a decent person, but I now judge people who work in car sales or car sales management and not in a good way.

Anyway, it’s been a year since we sold that vehicle. Our total transit costs this year have been < $1000 according to mint. Luckily we use a combination of mass transit and just walking places. The mass transit in my city isn’t that great, but it’s still thousands of dollars cheaper than the hassle of car ownership.

There’s no way I’d pay $40K-$50K for a vehicle to buy a Tesla. That being said, I hope the dealership model dies and these blood sucking, anti competitive conmen have to fall to a more honest way of living.

I had my credit union's car purchasing department handle my car purchase. Did everything over email - I told them what I wanted and in what color, they did the legwork to find a dealer that had what I wanted. Emailed me a quote, then the dealer delivered it to my door.

No haggling, no visiting dealers, just email and signing some papers.

What sort of credit union offers car purchasing service? what other services do they offer?

A bunch in the bay area. I use San Francisco Federal, but they use PatelCo CU's service.

My bank and credit union both offer car buying services via TrueCar (which my bank actually owns around 10% of so they really encourage people to use it). In my case I paid around 5% less for my car than the "best" price I was able to get by visiting a dealer and going through the traditional song-and-dance routine. It seems like one of the big benefits is that they make it really easy to check the prices at a bunch of dealers. I don't remember if they actually offered any substantial saving at my local dealer compared to the price I "negotiated", but I was able to find a dealer that was willing to do a cheaper price around 70 miles away.

How did you get a decent price? My employer offers a similar service as part of the benefits program. You print out a piece of paper, take it to the dealer, and get a prenegotiated price. Sounds amazing in theory until you do more research and realize you’re still paying $1000s more.

I emailed a bunch of dealers before my CU told me this service existed and got quotes, and they were competitive. It differed like, $500-1000 from what area dealers were offering and i was willing to take it.

So, some legwork with a throwaway email address, but still very sofa compatibile.

I emailed dealers and no one wanted to work over email. One even flat out wrote back saying they don’t send quotes over email because they know i will just shop around for a lower price.

I found the same thing. Everyone wanted you to come in so they could play their games. Still not that bad if you’re just making a cash on the barrel purchase but I did have to visit dealers.

I did that successfully in 2001 but in 2014 nobody would give me quotes over E-mail.

The only way I know to get a good deal is to walk into a dealership, know exactly which car & options you want & say you're paying cash & are willing to pay $100 over the manufacturer's invoice. They'll cut the nonsense and take the deal.

90% of the games begin when you finance the vehicle at the dealership. Don't want to put $2000 down? Let's just add another year to the term. Or how about we add $50 / month to the payment? I watched in shock as salesmen would come back with increasingly worse offers in terms of total cost and customers would leave happy thinking they were great negotiators.

Americans are shockingly bad at math.

> say you're paying cash & are willing to pay $100 over the manufacturer's invoice

It's good to research what the invoice price is, but this isn't their actual cost. Manufacturers offer incentives to dealerships based on all sorts of things, including hitting certain sales goals. These rebates aren't factored into the invoice price, so even buying at invoice isn't always an amazing deal. My understanding is that the rebates/incentives are bigger with some manufacturers than others, but I don't know the details.

That's true. You're probably still getting screwed, but quite a bit less than everyone else. If you don't want to get screwed at all, don't buy a new car from a dealership.

Ya, all this talk of how to get a good deal... There is no such thing at a new car dealership. Wait until the car has 20,000 miles on it. Get it for way, way less.

Here's a decent article about how auto pricing has evolved beyond manufacturer's invoice due to the internet:

https://clark.com/cars/eye-opening-truth-about-dealer-invoic...

Thanks for sharing. It's been over a decade since I worked at a dealership & obviously haven't kept up with the industry very much.

"are willing to pay $100 over the manufacturer's invoice. "

With the two new cars I have bought so far I paid substantially under invoice both times. Seems a made up number to me.

I also paid cash each time and they begged me to finance for three months so they would get more incentives from the manufacturer.

Go to the internet sales manager at the dealer. Last time I did it it was no-nonsense. They ask for my requirements, quote a price. I compare prices among a few dealers and went with the best. I go there and a car is ready for me to test drive. I had pre-negotiated a loan with my credit union so 30 minutes of paperwork and I'm out.

You can play the different sales managers off each other too. You have room to negotiate if you want to spend the time.

Costco has a similar arrangement.

If you're willing to pay the dealer's quote, then car salesmen will love you and you'll have a great time at a dealership anyway.

The entire bullshit process begins when you try to get a price that doesn't have thousands of extra dollars in for the dealership.

Sure, if the quote is out the door, but it never seems to be from what I've seen.

This was "Here's the price excluding title transfer including delivery"

Here is what I do, and it works well:

1. Call the dealer and ask for the internet sales manager.

2. Tell the manager exactly what you want (many people are not able to do this accurately and consistently).

3. Ask for the out-the-door price.

4. Repeat for any number of dealers that you are willing to drive to.

5. Buy from the dealer you choose.

I usually get several quotes within $100 or so of each other. At that point, I just pick the place with a low price and in a location that I prefer to pick up my car.

That's close to my procedure but last time I did car shopping two dealers made me come in and after an hour of paperwork it turned out that they didn't keep their end of the bargain but added 1000-2000 to the price. I walked out but still wasted a lot of time. Only the third dealer stuck to his promise afte a little amount of negotiating.

Buying a car and medical billing are the sleaziest businesses I have ever dealt with.

You need to be careful and make sure to select dealers that are outside of their conglomerates. When we were shopping our last Subaru no one would budge on us until we started talking with Oregon dealers, then all of a sudden they'd drop the price a ton.

Turns out almost all Subaru dealerships in SW WA are owned by the same owner under different names so they just coordinate to not deal unless they know they're actually competing for a sale.

I had this problem buying a motorcycle; I don't know if or how the local dealers coordinated, but I got a dramatically better price half a state away. I took the quote to the local dealer and offered to add on half what shipping would cost me. - worked out somewhat lower than any of the local dealers were willing to pay and I got to buy from a local dealer (which ended up not being a big deal anyhow, but it was something I thought would be important)

If you get an out the door quote that you're willing to accept, tell them that you're coming in with a check made out in exactly that amount and if it turns out that isn't enough, you'll leave.

While I fully agree on hating the process, I've found the easiest working reply to these tactics by accident:

Simply visit the dealer, get through exactly the model you want, be reasonably interested (but not too much in love), ask for a quote, leave some contact details and leave.

Never answer and come back in about a month with a cheque when they've bidded themselves 20% down without you even saying a word.

This only works if your vehicle isn't niche or if demand is more than supply.

I guess you could just multiply by X dealers and use the same "time is on my side" approach.

Well, yes, that's kind of implied isn't it? If it was in demand then they won't have to negotiate with you as much. Some could even charge more if the demand is high enough.

9 times out of 10 when you ask for the quote, the answer will be "what will it take to put you in this car today" and the haggling starts. They will dance and do tricks to keep you in the showroom. You need to be determined to walk out, and probably get as far as opening the door, to get them to quote a number first.

Isn't this the same for Tesla? You have to accept tesla's quote with no negotiation?

It’s different because with Tesla you can’t negotiate. The price is the price, take it or leave it. With a traditional dealership, you can refrain from negotiating, but then you’re leaving money on the table, potentially thousands of dollars.

There are "no haggle" dealers though and there have been brands over the years that were no haggle. But it has to pretty much be at the brand level at least or the process doesn't work in the consumer's favor. And that doesn't even account for financing and trade-ins.

However, especially as you get to luxury brands and buyers aren't trying to get to minimal prices, I expect the "dealer experience" gets better.

So they have better salespeople that will never negotiate? Seems like a win for them.

It’s a win for everyone. That’s why roughly 99.9% of goods are sold this way.

In all fairness that does assume you don’t care about test driving etc. but in general if you don’t have dealer financing needs, are happy to do a private sale or donation for your trade-in, and know what you want and will pay, the dealer experience is mostly just mildly annoying even if you buy a car from one.

Right - I knew exactly what I wanted since I had driven the car as a rental.

Can you elaborate on your horrible experience? I bought a new car for the first time this year. I went to the Toyota dealer with my wife, we drove three cars, and decided the Corolla iM would be enough for 95% of our needs. We came back the next day and filled out all the paper work.

Of course, they did try to get us to buy a bunch of pointles s addons and insurances, so it was annoying to have to say "No" over and over again to those.

I knew what car I wanted and had looked around online to figure out what was a great price vs an acceptable one price.

I called three dealerships in my area and confirmed if they still had the vehicles I’d seen in their inventory on their website. They did and wanted me to come down immediately. I gave my email address and asked if we could continue over email. I made clear I wanted to settle in the final out the door price and I would come ready to purchase.

All three sent me promotional material over email. When I inquired about the final out the door price, one ghosted me, and the other two stated I would have to come down because it depends. One of them finally emailed me again with a full quote and OTD price including all taxes.

I went into the dealership where the salesman kept playing a game of going back and forth with me and the sales managers office. You see, he could not offer the original OTD offer, as it did not include some paperwork fees, delivery fees, and one other item, that pushed the cost up by another $1200.

I told him I’d honor the OTD cost he quoted me. So he walks to his manager, comes back, goes back, comes back, with me flat out declining each time.

This went on for an hour until I left. I gave my final price and then just got up to leave. The sales person changed tactics and tried to get me to take another car which had another 10k miles for about $500 less, which I didn’t want.

I then spoke to one other dealer over the phone who called me back within a day with the OTD price for a new Civic. I went to the dealership, but oh no! They just sold that car. They want me to look at an Accord instead. I leave.

> I called three dealerships in my area and confirmed if they still had the vehicles I’d seen in their inventory on their website.

A new bait and switch technique I saw with a friend. Once they had him interested, they changed the location of the vehicle on AutoTrader to be about 250 miles away (so it wouldn't show up in default searches) and they could claim "they didn't have it any more" (and then of course say "no, you're mistaken, it's not that price", or "I'm not seeing the car you thought you were looking at...").

The key thing to avoid with dealers is the "come on in". I don't "come on in" until we have a car agreed upon, a price agreed upon, and they've confirmed they're okay with me using my own financing/cash. If they won't do this, they're not worth your time.

Not parent, but we also had several bad experiences test driving cars in the bay area. One common theme was that reps didn't want to let us see more than one vehicle. This happened at both the Toyota dealership in Palo Alto and the Hyundai dealership in Burlingame.

We shouldn't have been flagged as non-serious buyers because we have plenty of money to buy the cars we were looking at, live in an expensive town, and we weren't looking at fun-to-drive cars. We were about to have our first child and were going to buy a family car. And we drove onto the lot in a new car that we'd just purchased!

Nonetheless, the reps only wanted us to see one vehicle. Only after insisting did they let us see a second vehicle (and at the Hyundai dealership we were literally shown this one by the janitor, not a sales rep).

We were so turned off by the whole experience that we ended up buying our subsequent vehicles used from individuals. I'm sure I'll buy a new car again someday, but I don't look forward to the process.

Bait & switch and fake feeling of emergency are the most common I've seen.

"Hurry, if you don't close the sale now on this vehicle it won't be there tomorrow."

...

"Oh, the vehicle you called for? Sorry we just sold the last, we only have the model with X and Y options right now. We could order the one you wanted but it won't be there until next month. Don't worry, I'll make you a deal, it will only cost you [original price * 1.5] and you will have all of those fancy useless options right now! We are friends here, you are lucky I don't offer that deal to just anybody."

That and trying to have you believe that paying cash for a used car will hurt you.

"Oh, you have $7k in your pockets for that used car we have on the lot? Keep your money! We offer such a low interest rate. Use that money for something you truly care about and leave with the car anyway! No, really... I would feel bad to take this money from you. Here, sign this and the car is yours." ... Loses all semblance of false friendship ... "Oh, you really want to pay cash? Alright. Let me call my supervisor and he will close the deal for you."

I had an unusual Toyota experience that really pissed me off.

The buying experience was ok. Negotiating the price was annoying but I called a bunch of places for quotes, asking each one to beat the last one, and stopped when they started to say they couldn’t. Everything was fine until much later when I was buying my next car and trading this one in. Turned out the dealer had filed a lien with their finance division even though I bought the car outright. Just finding the right person to contact was a major pain. (Toyota Financial had to do the work to release the lien, but they wouldn’t do it for me. The dealership had to ask them.) Once I did, I had to call repeatedly to get them to move with any sort of speed. (I discovered this problem on Monday and was trying to buy on Tuesday.)

I realize this is not the typical experience, but it certainly left me eager to see the whole dealership system burn to the ground.

Filing a fraudulent lien is a crime. You should have said resolve this now or I'm calling the prosecutors office.

I worked for a month in college at a car dealership and it was every bit as shady as you think.

My boss asked me to help him pass the drug test by loaning him some urine (I declined).

One time after closing the sale of a car, the shop swapped out some damaged parts and claimed the new owner was responsible. It was at night so he hadn't noticed the damage before driving off the lot.

There was also a nonstop flood of white-lies to try and build rapport with customers. Every salesman had a kid the same age as the customers or a cousin who worked at the same company.

I was relieved to get out of there & started working at a software company instead. Despite how much I hated the job, the sales skills I learned there have served me well.

Every salesman had a kid the same age as the customers or a cousin who worked at the same company

I had a sales manager at a used car dealership tell me he went to the Air Force Academy (my alma mater) after he asked about my college. Little did he know we have a "secret handshake" of sorts, which he was completely clueless about. Ended up calling him on it and he backed off of his high pressure sales bullshit.

Tell me you didn't give that lowlife a sale.

Well I "gave" my salesman the sale, the manager was just overseeing the whole place and would interject randomly to the consternation of his actual salesmen who were perfectly cordial.

> Luckily we use a combination of mass transit and just walking places.

You certainly do not live in Michigan then.

You have to check, recheck, and check again with stealerships and then they purposely take forever to do things to wear you down and the slip B.S. back in to the paperwork, when called on it acting like it was an accident. I hate buying cars.

Oh yes. I bought a vehicle with AudiCare. The dealership tried putting it on the invoice as "Other Aftermarket". When I went to use AudiCare the vehicle wasn't registered and they said that that fee was for a "second key" (even though it was 2-3 times the cost of a replacement key, and matched to the dollar the amount for AudiCare). Even when I showed them a photo of their breakdown pre-invoice that said, "AudiCare $xxx" and I'd signed it next to the sales managers signature they still balked at honoring it until I made enough of a loud fuss in their showroom in front of other customers.

What's stopping existing car companies from doing direct sales like Tesla? Removing barriers to customers giving you money is generally a win. How many Tesla's were purchased in the last year that wouldn't have been if the stressful dealership was in the way?

How about a subscription / lease deal where they ship you the new model every year? Sell a cheaper tier for the 2nd year used vehicles. Do telemetry on driver safety and charge accident-prone drivers more! Replace/bundle/improve car insurance while you're at it. Are there regulatory hurdles preventing this for a company like Ford or Toyota? Is it just organizational momentum stalling these changes?

Regulation. Most states don't permit car sales without a dealership.

What’s stopping them? Laws in pretty much every state. Laws that have been one of Tesla’s biggest pains. They’ve managed to overturn some of them, but most the time they just get special exceptions carved out for them.

there are (good and proper) laws to prevent a car company from having a dealership network that is entirely dependent on them, and at the same time competing with that network by doing direct sales. since tesla doesn't have a dealership network they should technically not fall under those laws, but regulations tend to be 'no' by default (again, probably for good and proper reasons, since there are tons of incentives to game the system otherwise)

edit: as per this comment, seems i was wrong about this just being regulators saying no by default: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18772642

Volvo is doing exactly that, it’s called Volvo Care if I’m not mistaken and includes some newer cars, service, maintenance, winter tires etc in a monthly fee.

In addition, Lincoln and Geely's Link and Co are also planning something like this.

Seems like Toyota Connected has similar projects in development - although maybe more focused for on-demand capabilities. Electric and self-driving capabilities aside - this sort of service subscription seems to have no major technological barriers; largely an operations + software problem. Seems like a good way to transition dealerships into service outlets towards larger scale fleet management.

Looking thru my papers last night I noticed another forgotten cost, moving and parking tickets, traffic school, and fees that double every twenty days if not paid promptly. No other government service occurs within an order of magnitude as quickly.

Our city is particularly predatory in that regard so I can expect a couple every year even though I drive only once a week.

For those that haven't had the Tesla experience, it's a refreshing change of pace. They don't have dealerships, only showrooms and service centers. You can schedule a test drive at a showroom (or online), and your rep will be happy to help you configure your car right there if you decide to buy, but you can also go home and leisurely plan your configuration over the internet. You can see the price of every option before you add it, and when you're through, you get an exact total that you can pay through the website. No pressure, no haggling, no upgrades. When your car is ready, you pick it up at the service center. That's it. The cars aren't cheap, but the buying process is the most pleasant I've ever experienced.

Sounds great. Has privacy of driving data become an option yet, and is it observed?

For anyone who's gone through both, how does it it compare to BMW USA's online ordering?

https://www.bmwusa.com/byo.html#!/model-variant-selector/3-s...

Believe me, any dealer will happily escort you thru a similar order process if you're paying list price.

Problem is, some people don't want to be "escorted", they just want to be able to look through the options and pick for themselves.

One family member bought a Mazda, and then two months later it was stolen from their home, stripped for parts and burned.

Insurance would only pay out in the form of a cheque to a dealer, and the dealer would only deal in-person, even when told they just wanted an exact replacement for the previous car. The sales guy wanted the opportunity to upsell on some other feature, rather than take the guaranteed sale.

Even now, with the advent of the internet, it's stupidly difficult to figure out what options are available, their pricing, etc and to configure a car. Oh no, you have to visit the dealer to know all that. Bullshit, the dealer's doing it online, why can't I?

You will hit these problems when you deal with salespeople on the floor and not salespeople in an office. That being said, here's hoping you never have to own a car. I'm stuck burning dinosaurs and it sucks.

Meta question: why did you use a throwaway account for this?

I created it a while ago and just kept it since.

As a general response to all of the hatred directed at dealerships, I'd mention that I've experienced none of this nonsense when leasing a car.

I've experienced none of this nonsense when buying a 4-year used car at a dealer. I came in, did the test drive, the sticker price was reasonable compared to craigslist, I bitched that the tires were on their last legs, argued down $400, wrote a cheque, and was done.

The most time-intensive part of this process was signing all the paperwork, and playing telephone games with an insurance agency.

I'd still, for all the obvious reasons, prefer to shop and buy on-line.

>That being said, I hope the dealership model dies and these blood sucking, anti competitive conmen have to fall to a more honest way of living

What an ignorant comment.

A huge portion of dealerships are small business owners in small towns. Honest, middle class people who care about serving customers.

This is all beside the point that Tesla has in no way proven their system works. In fact, as time goes on they are adopting dealer methods. There's a reason for that; people want to deal with locals.

I’ve bought 5 brand new cars in my life time. All vehicles were purchased in small towns in Kansas, Texas, and Tennessee. During that process, I dealt with over a dozen dealers. Every time, it was the same shady practices.

My comment reflects my experiences.

Considering your comment history attacking Tesla in this larger thread in favor of dealers and this particular comment, I assume you are affiliated with some dealer.

Calling me ignorant doesn’t solve any problem. If you are a stakeholder in a dealership business, try raising the bar a bit and provide an honest, hassle free and upfront experience to your customers. By attacking a frustrated customer (who isn’t a customer anymore because of the crooked sales tactics), you’re not helping your case.

Your post reminded me that I’m still smarting from my used 2017 car purchase last year. The windshield is pitted and replacement is the only real option and is expensive. We couldn’t see the speckling. We really noticed in the summer.

Have you checked to see if insurance will cover the windshield? In Massachusetts, cracked or "unsafely" pitted windshield is zero deductible.

Just bought new Honda from the least known shady dealer in the town and even they were so crooked. They added in Karr Security Alarm for $999. It's like buying PC with malware. Then they tried to push paint protector for another $400. Again complete scam. As I refused all these, their finance guy tried to push Century Automotive Services after-market service contract for $2400. Again complete waste.

I told them I don't mind paying money but at very least they should be giving something actually useful like tinted window or Satellite radio. They guy starred at me with blank.

It is mind boggling that even mega brands like Honda are not able to tame these snake oil salesman. Honda literally gives away monopoly over entire region to them. Can't they simply require them not to engage in these practices? Why is this so hard?

Those aftermarket warrantees and add ons are nearly pure profit. That's why they push them. They probably make more selling the warranty than they do selling the car itself.

This doesn't happen with other franchises like McDonnalds or Subway or 7-11. These franchise owners are not allowed to load up snake oil on customers, they deeply care about brand experience and all goods+services are tightly controlled in exchange for monopoly over some territory. Many of these franchises don't even have huge margins or profits. Car manufacturers somehow aren't able to do this.

McDonalds is a real estate company that happens to also sell an occasional hamburger. The FDA requires that hamburgers not be cooked in snake oil.

McDonald's corporate makes a lot of money on real estate. But every franchise is making it purely on those "occasional" burgers. It is that revenue that pays for the real estate.

Car manufacturers aren't able to do it because the car dealership lobby is a powerful one in state governments.

> I planned on downgrading from an Infiniti to a 3 year old Honda Civic or Fit.

If you're buying used, I would recommend to never bother with dealers. Buy from a local private seller.

I've also heard CarMax is OK but I have no first hand experience with them.

There are places where you can't get by on public transit. E.g. most of the Silicon Valley.

And I had pretty good experience buying my car via a site where I could configure it online, get price from a dealer (online), come in, see them honor this price (which was not the best possible but quite ok) and get a car without an exhausting sleazy spiel. Unfortunately, this was years ago and the site that did it is long dead.

I still think it was a great model, however I can understand how families like mine buying a new car once per 10 years (maybe) or so can't sustain a viable business model, while sleazy car salesmen deliver the $$$$, so however I hate this, they have much better chance to survive than honest and customer-friendly buying experience.

> There are places where you can't get by on public transit. E.g. most of the Silicon Valley.

I am in Silicon Valley and I have been doing fine on public transit for several years now even if I ignore the very occasional rental [taxi, uber &c, car rental].

What "most of Silicon Valley" are you meaning? Is there an element of "what I want where I want when I want at a moments notice" in your statement? Something else I'm not understanding that necessitates me owning a personnel vehicle?

> I am in Silicon Valley

Within a short distance of San Francisco, I presume? Do you have a family? Kids?

> What "most of Silicon Valley" are you meaning?

Anything not within short distance of BART station, basically. All of San Jose, Cupertino, Campbell, Los Gatos, Sunnyvale, Palo Alto (excluding maybe Stanford campus), Santa Clara, Milpitas, Morgan Hill, etc.

> Is there an element of "what I want where I want when I want at a moments notice" in your statement?

If by "moment's notice" you mean getting somewhere within 30 mins vs. getting there in three hours, if you're lucky and no mass transit failure happens - then yes, "moment's notice".

> Something else I'm not understanding that necessitates me owning a personnel vehicle?

Yes. It's literally not possible to do simplest things - like buying groceries, getting to doctor's appointment, going to work, eating out (and I don't mean Michelene starred restaurants, I mean local sushi joint within 2.5 miles of your house), etc. - using public transit in most of SV unless you are prepared to spend literally hours on commute, and you're good at walking distances. If you're lucky to live in SF, some parts of Berkeley/Oakland, etc. - possible. If you live in San Jose and have a family - nope.

I am in Campbell, 1.5 blocks from a VTA hub. If I didn't want to take transit, I'd have to actively avoid it.

Three hours specifically on transit ... there is something "going wrong" such as being very far away and/or lack of planning. I assume you remember that some form of car-rental exists [the Uber-Lyft, Enterprise, Taxi, &c]; if your lifestyle really does need such things on a regular basis, then yes you "need" to own a personal vehicle. Otherwise, clearly no you do not.

And for the simple things... the average person literally cannot walk or transit for a restaurant or grocery [food deserts aside]? What have I been doing for these exact activities? And again you talk about spending hours upon hours to get somewhere not far away; do you read schedules or is your schedule that tight and urgent?

Again, ripping on San Jose//Campbell transit. You'll see me on VTA lite rail and buses being on time where I need to be. Will I be seeing you on a sidewalk confused in wonder?

> 1.5 blocks from a VTA hub

Here you go. Most of SV isn't.

> I assume you remember that some form of car-rental exists [the Uber-Lyft, Enterprise, Taxi, &c]

Relying on taxi for mundane day-to-day movements maybe ok for people way richer than me, but for me it would be several thousand dollars per month - way more than I could afford. And way more than I spend on a car, including the purchase price.

> the average person literally cannot walk or transit for a restaurant or grocery [food deserts aside]?

Yes. There is maybe 2 or 3 restaurants within walking distance of me, and by walking I don't mean 1.5 blocks, I mean at 15 minutes. And by "restaurants" I mean anything including McDonalds. If you, like me, don't want to eat in McDonalds, closest decent restaurants are about half an hour walking. Sometimes we do walk there, but it's not for every weather and every mood. And if you want something like going to a brewery to get couple glasses of beer, that'd be an hour hike. Or a short drive. And as for groceries, one grocery store in 15 mins walk. Good luck walking there. Under rain. Or scorching sun. With groceries. Nope, no thanks.

> You'll see me on VTA lite rail

If you live next to it and everything you need also is next to it, you're in luck. Look at the map and see how much of the SJ territory it covers - and how much it does not. Vast majority of people live in "does not" territory.

> Will I be seeing you on a sidewalk confused in wonder?

Nope, you'd be seeing me driving past you, getting where I need to get an hour earlier than you :)

Michigan legislators waited until 2 am to pass a controversial law not allowing Tesla to setup showrooms in the state. The state's car dealership organization and General Motors spent big money to make this happen.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15360613/unplugged-michig...

Tesla already has a tool and die operation in Grand Rapids. They've even expressed interest in acquiring a closed GM plant in Detroit yet the state stands in rare bipartisan opposition to them ever selling cars here. The nearest place to order a Tesla is Cleveland, Ohio

That article seems to suggest there is strong _partisan_ (R) opposition. I'm not knowledgeable about current Michigan legislation; is there truly bipartisan opposition to opening a Tesla plant in Detroit?

The article only mentioned that the amendment was introduced by a republican and the current governor happens to be republican.

>Roll Call # 952 Yeas 106 Nays 1

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(0jea3dr1fnip1bve0xixi4we))/...

If that isn't corruption I don't know what is.

Yep. That's corruption.

I was surprised by some of the cost benefits of EV. I did a rough total cost of ownership for my wife's Model 3 vs my Audi A4. Over five years (@17k miles per year) it came out to the Model 3 being ~$10k cheaper than the A4 despite the Model 3 having a higher sticker price.

Because I know it will come up, I know these prices are not reasonable for most people and certainly far from the promised $35k. This is just a comparison for the Luxury segment we were shopping for.

My TCO notes below if you're curious or have feedback on things I'm missing:

    Fuel costs for Audi A4
    567 Gallons Gas 		: Assuming ~30 MPG
    * $3.64/gal			: Premium grade in SF, CA
    = $2063 / year

    Fuel costs for Tesla M3
    4116 kWh	 Electricity	: 4.13 miles/kWh (310 miles range / 75kWh battery) 
    * $0.13046/kWh		: PG&E off-peak rates (Winter, after 11pm)
    = $537 / year

    Tesla Fuel savings = $1526 / year

    Tesla Model 3 costs/rebate break down
    $ 56500		: Total cost (out the door)
    + 2685		: Electricity cost over 5 years
    + 1750		: Home charging plug installation + permit
    - 7500		: Federal tax credit
    - 2500		: California rebate
    - 500		: PG&E rebate
    + 5605		: Insurance cost over 5 years
    + ?			: Maintenance & Repair (Unknown, but expected to be much less than Audi)
    ---
    = $56040	: Grand total

    Audi A4 costs break down
    $ 50226		: Total cost (out the door)
    + 10315		: Gas cost over 5 years
    + 5845		: Insurance cost over 5 years
    + ?			: Maintenance & Repair (Unknown, but expected to be much more than Tesla)
    ---
    = $66386	: Grand total

    Tesla Model 3 is at least $10,346 cheaper for her to own over 5 years.

    Notes: 
    - This doesn't include resale value though articles I've seen mention that Tesla's hold their value as well or better than most Luxury cars.
    - She gets free charging at work so electricity costs will be a lot lower for the M3 than the worse case scenario I have above

Looks as if it's basically a wash without the tax incentives, which is kind of amazing really. The cost of EVs will fall, so this means they will be cheaper than ICE cars without tax incentives very soon.

This could tip quickly. No wonder petrostates are freaking out.

Dan Neil (WSJ auto columnist) just wrote an article coming to the same conclusion.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/think-electric-vehicles-are-gre...

Ah, that's an interesting breakdown.

For me, those numbers boiled down to "a Tesla M3 is $10k cheaper than an A4 because it gets $10k of government rebates"

    - 7500		: Federal tax credit
    - 2500		: California rebate

Of course, the argument is that fossil fuel vehicles are the beneficiaries of unaccounted-for negative externalities, and that these rebates rectify that somewhat. But it's interesting that the A4 would otherwise be comparable. It seems that as long as the subsidies exist and it's mostly Tesla benefiting, it's in Tesla's interest to keep the price up at a level where this is the case -- where they're only cheaper due to subsidies.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see some price drops across Tesla’s lineup next week when their federal tax credit gets cut in half.

The devil is in the details though. Things that can significantly swing prices:

1. Saving $5k by not getting Auto Pilot (The A4 doesn't have it so maybe it wasn't fair for me to include that in the price to begin with)

2. The true MPG the A4 gets on your normal commute (She's in a lot of stop and go traffic. I had to guess on the optimistic side. My gut feel is the A4 would get more like 25mpg, but I'm being optimistic with the Model 3 range of 310 too)

3. The actual costs of maintenance and repairs. It's estimated to be a lot less than the A4 but only time will tell.

4. You live in an area with reasonable power prices off-peak. That can bump the electricity costs in some areas by 50% or more.

5. I've seen people get a home plug installed for 1/3 of what I was charged.

I don't think you can really compare the interior/build quality of the Model 3 to the A4, though. The 3 squeaks and cracks when you push on the dash, has cheaper and cheaper-looking materials, as compared to the A4 (I've driven a 2015 and 2017 A4, and an Model 3).

I tried to keep these out of the calculation and discussion since it is highly subjective. For example, I'm the exact opposite of you. I can't stand my Audi interior now that I've ridden in a Model 3. I find the seats far more comfortable and the minimalist aesthetic far preferable than the million buttons, dials, and pointless displays in my A4. <- This probably triggered a lot of people (Sorry!) which is why I wanted to leave it out of the dollar cost.

I agree. I has the 2017 S-Line Prestige Edition and I much prefer the interior of a Tesla Model 3.

6k insurance over 5 years is $100 per month. That's lower that'd I've expected for a Tesla and Audi. What insurance are you using if you don't mind sharing?

I'm using Geico. They are configured with the exact same plan and deductible:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DvcNZP5UwAA76pc.jpg:large

Thanks!

I finally got my Model 3 a couple months ago -- I am not a car guy, I've always had the base model of sensible sedans, always bought used. This was my first fancy, new car.

Good fucking lord it is fun to drive. I took my parents for a spin and told them I'd briefly (if it was safe, mom) accelerate when I felt I had a good straightaway. I took them up an (uphill) onramp and gunned it -- my mom yelped at how immediate the force was. I'm 3 months in to owning it and I'm still thrilled to drive it.

The cheapest Tesla will be $46k once the tax credit expires at the end of the year. While that is a lot cheaper than before, it's still out of reach of the vast majority of Americans. I'm rooting for Tesla but that is a huge gap to close.

Note that the tax credit phases out over the course of a year, so for Tesla it'll be $3750 in H1 '19 and $1875 in H2.

That’s way off the mark. The federal tax credit is only 7,500$ and it’s not removed only dropping ~4K.

As to affordability, it’s the used car market that attracts discount buyers making the sticker price largely irrelevant. Which is why even a new Honda Civic runs 20,000+$.

What's off the mark? That is the price listed on Tesla's website. It's obfuscated by the fact that they incorporate "gas savings" into the displayed price, but if you click the info button they give you the "real" price.

The credit is only changing by 3,750 on January 1, it’s not hitting zero.

  $7,500	On or before December 31, 2018
  $3,750	January 1 to June 30, 2019
  $1,875	July 1 to December 31, 2019

That’s not to say the low battery range Tesla 3 will be out by June 30th, but the difference is not dramatic.

You can argue how ‘real’ that gas savings is, but gas is not free and it’s going to be more relevant when someone is buying a used electric vehicle. The gas savings is just as meaningful in years 5-15 but you’re not paying MSRP.

So it will be $44k+ in July (vs the stated 46k). I stand corrected...

If they can get the low battery range Tesla to mid 20s then we'll be talking. But if it is in the mid to upper 30s then the numbers don't really add up and the vehicle remains a luxury.

Again, if someone wants a car under 20k they are likely looking at a used car. We don’t have a lot of used electric cars yet, but that’s just a matter of time.

PS: The fuel savings is massive which will push up resale prices and directly save their original owner money. Saving 20+k over 15+ years and several owners is not the same as a lower sticker price, but it’s far from meaningless.

During 2019, cheaper versions with a smaller battery are expected, maybe even hitting the promised 35k for the entry level model. But probably still limited to the black color, others cost extra.

Sure, but that was also true of 2017.

Tesla was quite explicit, that deliveries of the Model 3 started with the high end models first and work downwards from there. They actually started with a middle level model - long range battery but only rear wheel drive. That the production ramp-up was slower than hoped for is known. Mid 2018 they added the AWD model and the performance AWD model, later the mid-range rear wheel drive. Next step, that is clearly communicated by Tesla, will be the standard range battery. For that, they will build a new smaller and cheaper battery pack - the mid range has the same pack as the long range, just with fewer cells in it.

I'm sorry, but you are simply rewriting history. As late as July 2017 (when the Model 3 launched), Tesla was claiming that the base model would be available that year (https://electrek.co/2017/07/29/tesla-model-3-production-spec...). They had been saying the same thing (that a $35,000 would exist and be available in 2017 for the previous 3 years).

The top selling automobile in America (Ford F150), has a base price of 43k. The Second best selling automobile ( Chevy Silverado ) is at 42k. In total the Average sale price of an automobile in America is 34k

Tesla is still above that, but not by much. I think people discount how much all those trucks and SUV's they see rolling around cost.

~42K for a base domestic pickup might be MSRP.

The actual transaction price is much, much less.

That is the actual transaction cost. The MSRP is lower for base model's but most cars sold are not base models.

You specifically stated base model price in your post. Why are you arguing?

The F-150 has a base price of $28k. The Chevy Silverado also has a base price of $28k. Those are MSRPs, so you can get them cheaper with bargaining, though of course the average person ends up paying more because they're adding on options.

I have no idea where you're getting those $43k figures from??

The average person ends up paying a lot more. Here is where I got my data from

Ford F150 - https://www.truecar.com/prices-new/ford/f-150-pricing/

Chevy Silverado - https://www.truecar.com/prices-new/chevrolet/silverado-1500-...

Thats the actual average paid.

You said "base price", not "average price".

Consumers buying a pick up are not going to be buying a Tesla. They are completely different categories of vehicle used for very different purposes.

Well let's face it, we buy things based on emotions. The wife and/or kids like something. You can see yourself driving it. As long as that is true, there will be car dealerships exactly as they are today.

I like the idea of a Tesla, but I can't justify the cost.

I hope they sell a ton of them and the cars go through the usual depreciation cycle. Maybe then.

If the idea is an EV with good range at a better price, then there's the Hyundai Kona:

https://insideevs.com/hyundai-kona-electric-gets-shockingly-...

The Kona's quite efficient. It recently finished second in an EV efficiency race:

https://electrek.co/2018/12/23/tesla-roadster-24-hour-electr...

I recently saw a Kona in Palo Alto and immediately called my wife to have her google it. I didn't even know it was an EV — I just didn't recognize it and thought it was a great-looking vehicle.

Only the Kona 19 is an EV, earlier models are ICE.

The local SV dealer told me March for the Kona EV.

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