Vermont's Remote Worker Grant Program | Hacker News Reader

Vermont's Remote Worker Grant Program

thinkvermont.com

47 pointsmaximente44 comments

previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17196507

>New remote worker must be an individual who is a full-time >employee as defined by the employer, who receives a W-2 from >their employer and is employed by a business with its >domicile or primary place of business outside of Vermont.

Freelancers and entrepreneurs are out of luck here. Unless Vermont hopes to pay for the program through employee payroll taxes, this restriction seems hopelessly arbitrary.

Also note that funding is "First come, First served. You must first move to Vermont and (correctly) fill out several pieces of paperwork to find out if you applied in time.

This seems like an awful way for one of the highest-tax states in the country to welcome remote workers.

This makes no sense to me either. A grant for small businesses AND remote workers would seem much more useful.

Yea. I finally moved out of Vermont after 10 years of it hindering my career opportunities. Saw this and thought about moving back for a second, except now I'm a small business instead of an employee, so no dice :(

I hope they get it together. Vermont interests me from what little I know about it. What’s the culture like?

The culture is great. One of the best reasons to live here.

It's a funny state :) The greater Burlington area is generally very liberal/progressive, and where most of the "action" happens. The majority of the rest of the state is very rural (with all of the typical stereotypes - it might be north, but VT is still the whitest state in the nation). Sometimes that's not a bad thing - VT is huge on local/organic food, for example.

Personally, I only ever lived in Burlington. There's a lot of "artsy" stuff, as well as a great outdoor scene. A tech scene exists too, but it's pretty small. I guess let me put it this way - for a young person, it's comparatively expensive, the schools are OK at best, and there's not a lot of opportunity. I'd retire there in a heartbeat though.

Rent an AirBnB for a month or two before you decide if it's for you. In the summer, Burlington is one of the nicer places you can find yourself - great weather, you're right there on Lake Champlain, and most of the college kids are gone. That said, the winters are long, dark, and cold...

I loved living in Vermont and would move back to Franklin county, probably St. Albans, if I could. Being about an hour from Montreal (pretty easy access to all the cultural events that has to offer), 30-40 minutes to decent ski resorts, on the lake, and a having plenty of land for other activities was great.

Having said that, the culture isn't for everyone. I found "real" Vermonters to be fiercely loyal and great neighbours, but were pretty skeptical of outsiders, particularly those who settle in Burlington, Stowe, or Manchester.

>This seems like an awful way for one of the highest-tax states in the country to welcome remote workers.

Yes, if your top metric for quality of life is income tax rate, Vermont is not the state for you.

It's more than just the taxes though, because not only are they high, but the salaries are significantly lower than just about every other major metropolitan area in the country, with a relatively similar cost of living to those places (at least comparing Chittenden County/the greater Burlington area).

Did some investigating when this was initially announced and we were considering moving.

Like most anywhere else, desirable areas(good schools, near water, access to public services) in Vermont are just as expensive as elsewhere, on top of the high income taxes.

My initial assumption was that the purpose of such a program was to attract new residents.

If that's not the case, what purpose does the program serve?

I believe the OP is referring to the fact that you have to relocate their first to find out if you qualified. In other words there is a risk involved. What does that have to do with quality of life metrics?

(for a single filer) at $100k income, this lowers the effective state income tax to 0.8%

at $200k income, this lowers the effective state income tax rate to 4.4%

New Hampshire is literally next door and has no income tax.

There's also no guarantee on the duration of this program. From their FAQ, it appears that it's renewed annually, so it would be very easy to dig in roots only to find out the program has been ended shortly after.

At the risk of going slightly political, if money is the reason for relocating there, I'm not sure I'd put much faith in it lasting given the elected officials for that state.

People in other areas don't respond very well to highly paid workers relocating to their neighborhoods and raising housing prices. I'd guess that as soon as this gets many people to move, sentiment turns and it vanishes.

You can build more houses.

That only scales to a point. Other side-effects of a larger population, like increased traffic, are harder to address than just building more houses.

That seems like less of a problem if all the new residents are working remotely though, yeah? There would of course be some new traffic, but it wouldn't be a huge mass of people commuting to the same place.

>"Other side-effects of a larger population, like increased traffic"

Remote workers don't commute though. Vermont's population has also been declining for years though and before that trend it was stagnant for decades[1]. Also if you've been to Vermont you know there's plenty of room to build there.

[1] https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/money/2016/12/29/v...

New Hampshire has other taxes. If you want to pay less in taxes find a state that spends less money.

https://ballotpedia.org/Total_state_government_expenditures

Per-capita, Vermont spends the 6th most; New Hampshire the 3rd least. Only Missouri and Florida spend less than New Hampshire.

Some people prefer Vermont's landscape, culture and politics and might be willing to give up 0.8% of income tax savings.

Yup, at some point you consider, it's only $800 and maybe you're getting a lot for your money. Not to mention other factors in overall cost of living can totally swamp that $65/mo. You probably spend more on internet.

Isn't the fact this program exists at all a testament to people not preferring Vermont and having to be incentivized to go there?

I think it is a trial baloon, and arises out of a perception that maybe in the future there will be large numbers of such people.

It's been twenty years since I lived in southern NH and worked for a company in Vermont, but I don't remember a lot of differences in the landscape, or frankly the culture. Yes Vermont has a reputation for being liberal and progressive, and NH has a reputation for being the live free or shoot me place, but the reality on the ground, at least when I was there, was a lot less contrasting.

I think there's a material difference between southern new hampshire and most of vermont. Vermont in general is far more rural (outside of Burlington, Rutland) whereas the larger towns in southern new hampshire that are fast growing are basically now suburbs of boston.

So it that why the state leans progressive? Liberal transplants from Boston? For a state that seems to be mostly rural without a large city, it is amazing Bernie Sanders is the senator.

Maybe living rural doesn’t automatically make you regressive.

Vermonter here. The average Vermonter voted for a Socialist Senator, a Democratic Representative, and a Republican governor in the last election. The person tends to be much more important than the party.

Vermont was reliably Republican until there was the perception that the GOP had an evangelical social agenda. Vermonters are not against private expressions of faith, but they believe it is deeply personal and have no interest in being lectured on it by politicians.

>Liberal transplants from Boston

There's a lot of people from NYC that want to retire upstate but come to the realization that NYC has done a very thorough job turning the entire state into a dump and that the only way out is to move out of state.

However, as a sibling comment pointed out, even if you ignore transplants the people of Vermont tend to agree with the modern left on a certain set of social issues anyway.

This. Vermont and NH residents are much more concerned by property taxes and education funding. I do not love having to fill out yet another tax form for the state in VT, but the income tax is a rounding error compared to other expenses. Meanwhile, I live somewhere that other people come to vacation. It is paradise year round (with an exception for mud season).

>Meanwhile, I live somewhere that other people come to vacation. It is paradise year round (with an exception for mud season).

Those vacationers are going to permanently move to your "paradise" when they want to retire or start families and it will be a paradise no longer.

All are welcome, particularly if they want to start families. We could use many more young families with school age children.

We are an old state with a dropping population, hence why the government is trying to attract new residents. Seriously, grab your skis, get in the car and come on up; the more the merrier.

Sort of. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

New Hampshire has high property taxes and it collects the equivalent of income tax from employers.

This is a really good point. If you are after clean air, natural beauty, outdoor activity and the New England vibe you could just as easily live in New Hampshire and pay zero state income tax.

Also there are many parts of New Hampshire where commuting in to Boston is an option if your remote gig went away. Many people live in low tax New Hampshire and commute in to Boston or or other parts of Massachusetts.

>New Hampshire is literally next door and has no income tax

I wouldn't bank on it staying that way for long. Massholes from are moving in in droves and are voting for the kinds of politicians who would be very amenable to am income tax. Of course if they get an income tax all their other taxes will stay high too.

> New Hampshire is literally next door and has no income tax.

Really?! Has New Hampshire finally gotten their act together and extricated themselves from the boot of the federal government? Or do you really mean that NH has a slightly lower income tax because nothing gets added to the federal one?

As a Vermonter, I really don't get all the hype around this. The program has gotten way more attention than it probably deserves. It's a limited program in a small state. The logic of it is bizarre. We're trying to bring in more tax dollars by giving people tax breaks to move here? There might be a small, long-term pay off but it would most likely be minimal. Low taxes don't get people to move here, it's mostly the nature but good, equitable schools and a relatively liberal culture don't hurt.

I think Vermont vastly overestimates how many remote jobs/workers currently exist

I’ve been trying to land one for over a year now

It’s slim pickings out here...

1. Sign lease for apartment in VT.

2. Lease deposit + new computer products = "qualified remote worker expenses".

3. Receive grant funds.

4. Resell computer products and never move to VT.

5. Put apartment on AirBNB.

6. Profit.

I haven't read the actual legislation, but I'd expect it accounts for fraud and what you're describing is an intent to commit fraud. Maybe you don't get caught but if you do, step 6 is gonna be damn expensive.

I did read the actual legislation.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com