It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden | Hacker News Reader

It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden

nytimes.com

59 pointsdaegloe61 comments

As it is always the case, determining when something is a paradigm shift or something truly great cannot be told instantly. It takes time. As a jazzdrummer myself (professional training and self-taught), I like what bevinahally said: that Jazz is not Mozart and Beethoven, and it doesn't have to be reproduced perfectly. Jazz is alive and sparkling. Especially London is a growing scene.

In my view, this time will be viewed as a paradigm shift, because you can see a lot of young and really talented players mixing up what is known as jazz with influences from techno and hip-hop (huh, what a fun twist). Yes, if you are looking for jazz as you are taught in school (say Coltrane), that still exists, but it's to me boring. Has been done.

I want to give you some examples to listen to, and you will hear what I mean. The drums use ghost notes quite heavily, 7th chords are turned into 11th and 13th chords, there are less changes in tonality. Rhythm is more straight, tighter. It get's you going!

Yussef Kamaal - Calligraphy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g826StJhLk)

Yussef Dayes X Alfa Mist - Love Is The Message (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwVtIPeYIeQ)

Nihilism Live @jazzrefreshed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTlZEv9V35o)

Ezra Collective - Enter The Jungle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGkZM6wjIwk)

Richard Spaven - The Self feat. Jordan Rakei (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YattHO96UzI)

Enjoy :) jazz is for everyone

Thanks for these recommendations. I already really like Yussef Kamaal, and from a short sampling these other artists will definitely make it into my rotation.

I feel I should also point out that Coltrane went much further than the sort of jazz that would be considered "academic" in his later years, as he got freer and more avant-garde. I particularly like the last year or so of his classic quartet (1965), as they stretched musical forms into very intense, dissonant directions, while still maintaining a masterful group cohesion. Take this performance[1] of My Favorite Things, for example, and compare it to the version released four years before--it's worlds apart.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWYWgda5f0I

You are very welcome. Thanks for your excellent recommendations down below!

You are correct! Thanks for that version. John Coltrane was extravagant in this regard, just like Miles Davis, Charlie Parker or Art Blakey. You can really tell whether you are listening to an early or late Davis/Bird/Blakey. Ornette Coleman was also a genius in switching and developing different styles [1][2].

Also, I really find the experimental music of JoJo Mayer & Nerve intriguing. Just heard him live few weeks back, and it was truly an amazing experience. Their newest album is the most "harmonic" and more easily accessible. It's a wonderful take on classic jazz by extremely good musicians. [3] Their other works are also great, but may be a bit difficult to listen.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNbD1JIH344 (1959)

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEikZrO2Cus (1982)

[3] https://nerve.bandcamp.com/album/after-the-flare

Any tips for folks like me who enjoy the sounds and grooves of your examples, especially the first two, but want more cohesive songs?

There's many different directions to go in.

On the more jazzy/instrumental side:

BADBADNOTGOOD - Confessions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWF2jHFkNpk

Rob Araujo - Nineteen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3J11saZ1TU

Binkbeats - Little Nerves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfpSn7ZYC0A

Jaga Jazzist - Animal Chin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVIFUQV20NM

On the hip-hop/R&B side:

Otis Junior + Dr. Dundiff - Me vs Me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Aqqv6kQnbw

Woo Park - Boom Bap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTLRUG5k1HY

April + Vista - Beasts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLb-swDzbv0

The Internet - Under Control: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSlnd4YnmGI

Other artists that are all over the place, and have lots of jazz influences:

Hiatus Kaiyote - Mobius Streak: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCvMtQSdCXo

Taylor McFerrin - Already There: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY-MZ0bL1Gc

Anderson .Paak - The Season/Carry Me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v5-0caYfqc

Thanks, time to surf youtube :)

Without commenting on the current state of jazz, I'll contribute several of my favorite modern artists:

The loud-and-completely-aware-of-that-fact Soil & "Pimp" Sessions from Japan. The name makes no sense, but that's half the image.

- AIE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWHP_mGPlJk

- Summer Goddess: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQMgXPFzdg8

Christian Scott aTunde Adjuah, with more of a soulful and at some times political approach.

- Twin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktU_X7CDaBM

- Live session: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OslN5mxWZi8

Related, from another article I've read recently:

> Jazz clubs didn’t have “no talking” rules back when jazz was a black popular music. (Charles Mingus and Nina Simone complained bitterly and often about people talking during their sets.) The sacralization/classicalization of jazz only dates back to the 1980s, when, for better or for worse, it became an academic music. On the one hand, it’s nice to go to a jazz concert and be able to hear everything. On the other hand, the music is not exactly the dynamic creative force it was back when it was being played while people smoked, drank and danced.

Sounds like my impression from Jazz concerts I have been to. They often felt sterile and emotionless to me. I like it when musicians feed off their audience's emotions and don't just do their thing.

It’s coming back in London. Check out artists associated with Total Refreshment Centre.

Come to the Midwest. I started learning jazz in the late 70s, and have been performing in public for about 25 years. About half of the players I work with have music degrees, the rest are dedicated amateurs like myself.

The multiple comments I'm reading here, about jazz being rigid, traditionalist, and stuffy, are foreign to me. Even many of the lower profile performances of classical and chamber music are pretty laid back.

It could be that the atmosphere of jazz performances reflects the local culture, rather than being driven by jazz itself.

Jazz has always bee like that back in the 50's there are incidences of actual fights at trad Jazz gigs, over arcane arguments over which sort of Bass should be used - this is Metal Vs String not a Double Bass vs an Electric Bass (which was beyond the pale)

Luckily, in the 1990s I could happily play electric bass (upright or guitar) in jazz gigs without receiving complaints. A shame it took so long to catch on - I think that the Fender Jazz was a great invention, and actually works well for jazz.

I'd be curious to see that article and what "clubs" the author is going to. I've been to plenty of clubs in multiple cities where it's still exactly like that. You talk, eat, and drink while the music plays in the background.

The only "no talking" Jazz events I've been to are true concerts with generally hefty ticket prices.

I would argue that jazz is largely viewed as background music now. People go to a jazz club to...talk. If they wanted to listen to the music they'd go to a rock concert.

Edit: Another thought, maybe a large segment of modern jazz is uninspired renditions of the old greats, and maybe that's why people don't give it much credence? I don't go to a lot of jazz clubs, so I can't really say. Perhaps more people would listen to modern jazz if it was so groundbreaking it knocked them off their feet...unfortunately that honor seems to go to rock, hip-hop, electronica, and such these days.

This. Every jazz club I've been to (save for the most prestigious like Blue Note) are lively events full of socializing.

It's a small quote from this [0] article.

[0] http://www.ethanhein.com/wp/2018/white-people-with-acoustic-...

Keith Jarrett is pretty famous for throwing tantrums over audience noises.

That's his classical roots showing.

In its time jazz was full of harmonic and rhythmic innovations. People played chords and melodies "wrong" and it felt dangerous and exciting. Jazz was always about pushing boundaries, but once you got to free jazz in the 1960s there was nowhere left to go, and the only thing left was to turn it into classical music.

All that energy is has been in hip hop for decades now. Oh yeah, and people want to dance too.

Jazz’s fate mirrors blues in that it’s reached its mature state and now symbiotic relationships with other genres are where innovation happens. David Bowie’s Blackstar, Dillinger Escape Plan’s Jazz-infused math rock hardcore, and Norwegian Shining’s Avant-garde Blackjazz sui generis would be prime examples of this kind of achievement.

I have a real problem with modern jazz. It's always trying to be something that it really isn't. It's just these people who grew up listening to the greats from the 20th century and imitating that sound. There's zero invention to it. Anything since the 70s and rise of smooth jazz is just rehashed mockery of a thing that once was. "Jazz" was something that happened at a specific time and place, with a specific group of people, and then it was over. It's not some transcendental overarching genre in itself to be explored. I'm far more interested now in hearing whatever some weird new electronic artist is coming up with than listening to someone perform Giant Steps note-for-note, or do a perfect Ella Fitzgerald.

Sorry, what? Are you sure you aren't making claims based on your particular experience with it? What about new types of jazz like Dilla jazz?

What about them? They're basically a subgenre of hip hop, for one.

But they're a new genre, a new "sound". It doesn't need to be completely unique to be a new or novel experience. Jazz was derivative of earlier genres, and those genres deriative of those before.

>But they're a new genre, a new "sound".

The parent didn't ask for a new sound in abstract. There have been tons of new genres (sounds), especially in electronic music since the 80s.

They ask for a new development in jazz. A hip-hop genre might be a new sound, but it's not a jazz development.

You haven't heard "love is a crying game" by Amy Whitehouse then - I though it was a lost Billy Holiday side when I first heard it.

Id agree on the performers when you have to have done a degree in music theory to appreciate it.

>You haven't heard "love is a crying game" by Amy Whitehouse then - I though it was a lost Billy Holiday side when I first heard it.

Doesn't that makes the parent's point even more?

This was addressed perfectly by Robert Glasper at a workshop that I attended. To paraphrase, he was talking about current day jazz school students talking about jazz like it's a work of Mozart or Beethoven, to be reproduced perfectly. "Hip-hop musicians are more jazz than jazz musicians today"

I wouldn't write off modern jazz though. I truly think that we're experiencing something phenomenal these days. I highly recommend anything by Snarky Puppy. Case in point - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_XJ_s5IsQc

This.

Jazz is difficult to play, and what makes it interesting is that it requires musicians with the talent and dedication to master their instruments, but also open-mindedness to play new things.

There are forces at work (i.e. Wynton Marsalis) trying to canonize a certain era of jazz as an essentially classical art form while expelling other musicians from the genre. These influences are present in jazz education-- teaching musicians what is jazz and what is not jazz.

Fortunately for all of us, the likes of Snarky Puppy, Kamasi Washington, Esperanza Spalding, John Medeski, and Robert Glasper are still making new music.

Ignore the critics. Listen to something you haven't tried before. You just might like it.

Thanks for the recommendations. I'm someone who loves the golden age of jazz but never got into modern jazz. I'd be happy to have my mind changed.

After a small sampling I think Snarky Puppy is definitely not for me. It's a little bit busy for me, I'm much more of a passive listener so anything that requires intense concentration I don't like. Kamasi Washington is much closer to being something I like. So of the songs I've listened to are also a little busy as well, though. Is this just a characteristic of all modern jazz?

I'd say that busyness is a pretty strong characteristic of modern jazz, but there's still a lot out there that you could listen to passively.

Brad Mehldau - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omF16-qbmeM Bill Laurance - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEXiixI6a2o Harold Lopez-Nussa - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B2R1TmutBA

I really enjoy the golden age of jazz. At the same time there's so much good music around these days and I can't help but appreciate the richness around us today. I'd love to chat about music (my email's on my profile).

Any GroundUp folks reading this, I'll see you in Miami in a few weeks :)

I'd love to chat about jazz! You're email is not in your profile though..

>Is this just a characteristic of all modern jazz?

There is certainly a strong post-Dilla trend towards rhythmic complexity, but a lot of contemporary artists are also producing work with a gentle and meditative quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4irB-qy8NY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS2Y_CkaXP0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siFD3ZJsYpM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_HrSD-zCF0

Funny, that's the second time within the space of an hour someone mentions Snarky Puppy. Very nice stuff.

Thanks for the video. (Alongside the rest of the comments here with links).

As someone who played Jazz for a Youth Ensemble at UofH while still in High School but never progressed once I left HS, I've been sort of at a loss finding some of the newer artists worth exploring. What.CD helped a lot in this respect while it was up, and I ended up buying a lot of Robert Glasper and Kamasai Washington after discovering who Flying Lotus was sampling and liking.

Got some tickets to see them Snarky in Seattle, gonna be a blast. Now I've got some a new Spotify Playlist for the next few months!

The linked article begins by mentioning Esperanza Spalding. To make the discussion more concrete, what specific recordings or artists from prior to the 70s would you argue her music a "rehashed mockery" of?

She's not your regular jazz artist. Even so, she's more like a mix of trip hop, tropicália, funk and blues. Unique blend, but hardly new avenues.

If a person defines jazz as "swing or bebop music that sounds like it did in the 40s and 50s" then that person will have created for themselves a concept of jazz which (by definition) cannot evolve.

That person isn't going to get much value out of _complaining_ that jazz isn't evolving by their evolution-proof definition of jazz, though.

>then that person will have created for themselves a concept of jazz which (by definition) cannot evolve

Well, we don't. But mixing other decades-old genres is not "evolving".

If you're not open to naming a concrete artist or recording that Esperanza is a rehash of, would you open to giving a concrete example of what you personally consider to be evolution in music within an existing genre that doesn't involve mixing elements of other genres?

Bonus points if the example doesn't depend on the introduction of a new instrument or musicmaking device that wasn't generally available when the genre began.

> I'm far more interested now in hearing whatever some weird new electronic artist is coming up with

Who in electronic music is pushing any of the genres forward right now? Trap and festival house took over festivals and stopped innovating. dubstep seems to be on life support, same with electro house. Trance hasn't moved forward and if anything wants to go back to the 90s sound. House never seemed to get ambitious

I feel like IDM sort of stalled, too. At one point, it seemed like we had some great minimalist work being done, some outstanding glitchy-sounding IDM coming from Autechre and Aphex Twin, and now there's-- what? Nothing, maybe. Definitely seems like we're in a rut (or maybe I'm getting too old to follow the scene properly anymore?)

Check out the recommended music section and their best albums of the year at Resident Advisor. Objekt's latest is probably something you would like.

Nils Frahm, Death Grips, Gazelle Twin, Gábor Lázár, the entire PC Music roster...

Say what you like about Oil Of Every Pearl's Un-Insides, but you can't say that it's stale.

Heh that was some interesting listening...

There's really quite a lot, if you know where to look. One particular genre I enjoy is experimental bass music, that tends to emphasize extremely detailed sound design and production. Every song will generally sound completely different. Here's a few songs, all from the last year or two, that should give a rough idea of what I'm talking about:

SIXIS - Faceless: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmJ8KAt8dQ4

Mr. Bill & kLL sMTH - Killiam William: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kBvWVkqebc

Frequent - Pumple Snout: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkzZhefuPGI

Freddy Todd - Audible Edibles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hJM8nae9qM

KOAN Sound - Chilli Daddy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6r9qxHg3qk

Futexture - Through the Edge of Never: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNPpgJtJ9E4

They're talented sure. This doesn't sound like its to new from what I was listening to 5 years ago. just looked it up, funk blaster came out in 2011. the neuro sound is pretty old too. I was pretty into glitch for a while(ive got signed tracks on beatport under the genre), ppl seem to be having fun doing their thing but idk if its progressed much.

this is 6 years old. sounds similar to those links? https://soundcloud.com/disprove/disprove-rustic-funk

ehh maybe i just need to come to terms im over it :(

That's a real nice track, thanks for that.

Admittedly, in the music I posted there's definitely roots in dubstep, neuro hop, glitch, etc. So it's not necessarily a "new" genre, and those tracks could have feasibly been made five years ago, but IMO there's so much sonic territory to explore that I still hear plenty of new tracks that sound unlike anything else I've ever heard.

I'll throw out a few more tracks in the hopes you might find something new to like:

Chee - Bane of Our Species - some heavier neuro hop type stuff, lots of broken rhythms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MI1i20GCRI

Zebbler Encanti Experience w/ Woulg - Flesh Out - alternating between spacey ambience and some super intense glitches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6OOW9j3ZCM

COPYCATT - Sweet Soul - some lush, jazzy neuro hop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfnJ8s_AhP4

Mindex - Cluster Overload - very layered, psychedelic bass type stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir_tqgnStuU

There are many artists doing that though you have to dig for that as they are not very dance friendly or require getting used to.

Some examples:

Breakcore (Venetian Snares) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zg1sgrw1PGM

Dark ambient (The Haxan Cloak) - https://youtu.be/9iBaQrDW544?t=590

Microtonal (Sevish) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v4JcuXoGIM

Sometimes it gets difficult to even categorize, take Igorrr for example which is a weird mix of folk/neoclassic/breakcore/black metal: https://youtu.be/UBakgOHKI-g?t=352

Sometimes you find some experimental gems on Soundcloud as well: https://soundcloud.com/isqamusic/tree_eater

There are also some more recent 'mainstreamish' subgenres of trance too, search for psycore, hitech, high-bpm, etc...

Unless you mean pushing the genre forward with also having a large audience, in which I would think more recent examples are Savant which has a lot of 8-bit and really well crafted dubstep (https://savantofficial.bandcamp.com/album/zion) or `*wave` (e.g. vaporwave).

There were also the circumstances (from the experience of being black in segregation-era America to jazz joints being seedy places where you could drink and smoke).

Music genres are not just knowledge of the rules (e.g. of harmonization) and technical skills. Without the culture that sustains them they are less powerful, or worse, kitch.

Listen to the artists named in the article. Half of the players that are part of the recent wave are on the same record labels as your "weird new electronic artist". The Comet Is Coming, one of Shabaka Hutching's many bands, is a great example, and so is anything on Brainfeeder.

Silly generalizations borne of ignorance.

> Anything since the 70s and rise of smooth jazz is just rehashed mockery

...oh dear...

> someone perform Giant Steps note-for-note, or do a perfect Ella Fitzgerald

dunno who's doing the former outside of Berklee practice rooms. And while hotels give venues to the latter, the heirs to Ella are people like Adele and Erykah Badu.

But maybe I'm just yelling into the wind; to a sufficiently snobbish snob, isn't everything "just rehashed mockery of a thing that once was"? Holding the past too preciously and scorning the present for its difference (while at the same time blaming it for that) is an unassailable position in the worst possible way...

Pure ignorance.

I'd suggest you try listening to some of the artists the article was making mention of. There are lots of very interesting new concepts in the music these days. And sure, there are kids playing transcriptions of Giant Steps, but who cares, that's not where the music is really at.

The author mentioned Makaya McCraven's work, which is made by getting together an assortment of musicians to improvise at live venues in front of an audience, which is recorded and then manipulated in Ableton after the fact. Those compositions that come out of Ableton are then transcribed, arranged, and performed with a new band.

For instance, I was at the show that was the source material for this at h0l0 in Ridgewood: https://intlanthem.bandcamp.com/track/black-lion-feat-dezron... . Those moments happened, but in very different ways over the course of the couple hours of the night. The version that came out of Makaya's post production and collage from Ableton was then performed a few weeks ago at LPR with a full band as a regular composition.

A lot of these musicians are doing quite a lot of things you probably assume only "electronic" artists are doing, but they're just doing it in the context of "jazz" (whatever that means).

Disclaimer: Makaya's been a friend of mine for 15ish years, but the work speaks for itself.

So envious you are friends with such a stellar musician. I've been blown away by "In the Moment". It's 21st century jazz and a huge inspiration.

Jazz never "clicked" with me until it was described as an Avant-garde art form. Then it all made beautiful sense and also stuck it fairly firmly into early to mid 20th century sensibilities. There's been some great artists and groups sense, but that's the era that seems to have really put the boundaries on the style.

true, only Nils Petter Molvær is edible for me. After years of listening to chillout I started to hate drums, now only ambient is approachable. There is small exception: Gas (Wolfgang Voigt), but it is more like sound of engine than drums: https://youtu.be/emUETcnDxnY?t=41

A lot of jazz, if you were to take an excerpt of the notes being played and listen to them in the cold light of day, is just objectively bad. A bit more sophisticated than, but similar to, over indulgent rock guitar soloing.

To shine a different light here in these comments, I think the recent resurgence of jazz is interesting and very special. A lot of different forces combined to make this happen, the most obvious being the trend of popular music towards hip hop and people discovering their roots. But I think the resurrection of vinyl had a large role to play here as well. Vinyl has blown up in the past few years and many young people are quickly realizing that some of the best recorded/mastered LPs were classic Jazz and Soul albums from the past century. This is a gateway drug into modern Jazz and also blends nicely with music nerds interested in obscure samples from their favorite modern artists. Also, I dont see the point in being pedantic about genre labels, but hey, its hacker news.

I don't think "golden age" implies no possibility of improvement. It could improve to a "platinum age", which is popularly thought of as more valuable that gold (even though it currently isn't). This is especially relevant to music, because RIAA sales certifications are well known, and a "platinum album" has sold more than a "gold album".

Or if you want something based on real word metal prices, it could be a "rhodium age".

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