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Comment by briga | Hacker News Reader

It's not just Rome, I saw this in other Italian cities as well. The tourist areas are well-manicured, naturally, but the outskirts of many Italian cities are crumbling. Infrastructure is generally outdated and poorly designed, if not actively falling apart. The Italy of postcards and travel videos is a far cry from the Italy most Italians live in.

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> The Italy of postcards and travel videos is a far cry from the Italy most Italians live

I recommend the 2011 documentary Italy: Love It or Leave It. It's about two guys who drive through Italy in an old Fiat 500 to decide if they should stay or move away. In the process they talk about modern Italy.

Trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnnv3XS4Nj0

Spain is in the same situation, although maybe not so pronounced yet. It's a stark contrast to post-Soviet countries, which are relatively well maintained and seeing trash dumped is practically unheard of.

Interesting, I am from Czech Republic, I was in Spain recently and I didn't feel like that at all. I have been mostly in Andalusia and the cities look great, Madrid looked fine as well.

Madrid is a fine city but I also was 'lucky' to visit it while there was a huge demonstration occupying the city centre. Didn't look so well during that time. I think right before that the garbage men had a strike leaving all the trash on the streets.

I guess in a way it doesn't take much to make a city look clean (or dirty) but it takes a lot of work for it to be constantly good looking.

I’m from Madrid and, having recently been to Rome, would have to disagree.

While Spain is certainly not on Switzerland or Japan’s level of cleanliness, I think it is miles away from Italy. Just the taxi ride from Fiumicino to Rome made me feel like I was in Brazil again - crooked, dirty road signs, wild vegetation growing everywhere, fading markings/lines, and a general state of chaos on every road.

I disagree. I recently spent three months traveling Spain and found myself consistently impressed with the cleanliness of it. It’s not uncommon to see someone carry a spray bottle full of cleaning fluid to spray after their dog’s urinated. I’ve never seen that happen anywhere else.

Not to mention that Italy is fast on the way to becoming - if not already there - a mafia state. Reading Roberto Saviano's Gomorra opened my eyes as to how machine-like in its efficiency and hydra-like in its resiliency organized crime in Italy is with numerous sectors of the Italian state under the direct control of the mafia [1].

Combined with the economic outlook, this doesn't bode well for the future.

[1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/mafia-toxic-waste-and-a-d...

Thinking of understanding the Italian situation from outside Italy and from reading Saviano is, in my opinion, complete BS. I like to form a personal opinion with my own mind reading real newspapers and getting through different prospectives and then, again, form my own. I wouldn’t take Saviano’s words as pure gold, I don’t like someone who gained and still gains from “writing” those kind of things.

I don't see how I can't understand the Italian situation if I'm not living in Italy. The link I posted in my previous comment was from a "real newspaper". There are hundreds of links like that, all from "real newspapers" documenting the damage that the Camorra/Ndrangheta/Sicilian Mafia has done and how they're even expanding and threatening European mainland. I stopped buying Italian olive oil because odds are it's been tampered with by the clans. Even the Italians I know in Northern Europe prefer buying Greek and Spanish oil!

You may not like Saviano but a lot of what he has written and predicted in his book has been validated. The fact that he unmasked Camorra at grave risks to his own life makes it hard for me to see him as "gaining" or exploitative. He lives his life in hotel rooms or police barracks under constant guard [1].

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/14/-sp-roberto-sa...

Visiting Venice many years ago, I found myself watching the ground rather than viewing the architecture due to the amount of dog shit on the streets. Obviously picking up after your dog is not in any way.

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