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Comment by wallflower | Hacker News Reader

If you are shadowing, it is best to either have them introduce you (if needed) and then say silent. Don’t be part of the action unless specifically invited. Observe and listen. In my opinion, taking copious notes might make people nervous. Try to take notes during breaks or the end of the day. Good luck!

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Unless you volunteer to provide minutes/notes for meetings you attend - it's a great way to put people at ease, AND be useful, AND be able to take as many notes as you want.

Brilliant

Note that taking minutes at a meeting is a skill and its possible to be embarrassingly bad at it. Consider finding a few episodes of Car Talk, My Favorite Murder, or another podcast with at least 2 people talking back and forth, putting it at 1.1x speed, and taking notes on that.

Do you consider yourself to be good at note taking?

> Consider finding a few episodes of Car Talk, My Favorite Murder, or another podcast with at least 2 people talking back and forth, putting it at 1.1x speed, and taking notes on that.

This is an interesting idea. I think I'll try it!

Do you recommend this as a way to get better at note taking or a way to assess your ability to take notes?

I find that the hardest part of taking useful notes is identifying and organizing the key ideas that will need to be referenced later; writing down everything that's said in the order it was said seems to be of less value in a lot of cases.

How would you assess the quality of notes taken with this exercise?

Great, thank you! I definitely don't want to overstep my boundaries, but I want to bring some kind of value. The CEO did initially try to recruit me for his sales team, based on my success at another company. Do you think it's ok to offer to help with some sales calls or essentially anything else that he thinks I can contribute to?

Is this his clever way of trying to get you to join the company? :)

I actually proposed the idea, but he did put the thought in my idea by telling me how successful his sales reps are...hmmm lol. It made me really curious how they do it, and how he was able to build such a successful company.

Offer all you want, but remember that if you're doing something, you aren't shadowing. Offer to take notes in meetings for them -- that's probably the most useful thing you could do.

Also, not to doubt your skills, but someone who doesn't have experience in the space "offering to help on sales calls" probably would be a net detriment.

Have a great time!

Makes sense, thank you!

It feels a little like Schrödinger's cat - if you contribute, you alter not just the direction and content of the meeting, but also the dynamic. By getting involved (opening the box) you would irrevocably alter what you observe.

If my goal was truly to observe the CEO and learn from him, my approach would be to be as silent and 'small' as possible - don't speak, don't draw attention to myself, sit behind the table, not at it, etc. I'd want everyone --including the CEO-- to forget I was even there.

I suggest you need to figure out what your goal truly is: to learn from him, or to 'bring value' for some reason? I'm not sure the two are compatible.

You make a good point. I think my need to bring value comes from being so grateful for the opportunity - I feel like I need to do something for him because he's doing something for me. I guess my time to 'repay' him will come later.

They're doing this /for/ you, not to get something /from/ you. Show your gratefulness by staying out of the way. Maybe bring donuts in the morning one day, something that doesn't impact the business. You're shadowing, not applying for a job.

I would suggest keeping your contributions limited to 1-on-1 conversations with the CEO, preferably soon after a meeting.

Taking a role in meetings could potentially create a lot of awkward power dynamics between you and the other executives, in my opinion.

> but I want to bring some kind of value.

I can't speak for this CEO, but if I were in the position I think I would get more value out of you being a silent shadow, and then debriefing you and getting a fresh perspective on the operational aspects of the organization.

That does seem to be an important thought...creating some compelling reason for him to talk with you again after this shadow work.

One that worked for me was to listen carefully for some opportunity where I could help. Like, "it sounds like you're negotiating with Microsoft... I just finished doing that with another company, there may be some helpful things I could share..."

Something like that creates a basis for an ongoing relationship. Such that you don't have to try to press a sales pitch in a hurry.

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