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Comment by univerio | Hacker News Reader

> [...] he did it because Amazon has an incentive program that pays drivers $5 for each undelivered package they return.

Not sure I understand the program and how it benefits Amazon in any way.

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To avoid people thinking "meh, they aren't answering, I'm just gonna toss it in the garbage". Since these are contractors driving their own cars, they don't "return to Amazon" at the end of the day. So, basically, Amazon is just compensating people for the drive back to the warehouse that they only have to do if they have packages leftover.

(Remember that this article is quoting an arrested man; I think there's a good chance what he's saying is a lie. He's probably just stealing packages.)

I still don't get it. Why do they need an incentive to not toss it in the garbage?

Because a non-zero number of the drivers are scum?

I did a bit of research, and found a bunch of people saying they just leave undelivered packages in their cars because they don't have time (desire?) to drive back to the warehouse 10-15 minutes away.

I also couldn't find anything about anyone getting paid, so either the arrested guy was lying or it's something new they're trying?

But if it's true, I'd say it's less of an incentive, and more of Amazon just compensating people who end up having to do more work.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonFlexDrivers/comments/70m0gy/n...

https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonFlexDrivers/comments/8f112d/w...

It would seem that Amazon would just pay them to return to the warehouse with merchandise, rather than paying them for each package they don't deliver.

The only place I've seen the $5/package thing mentioned was a quote from the guy who was arrested, so I think we can take it with a grain of salt.

Given Amazon's razor thin margins, zeal for efficiency and cost consciousness, this seems to just be a suspect making up a story to try and get away with a crime.

Not only that. Amazon is aware of which packages it’s given to a delivery driver. If he returned packages that weren’t given to him that’s a major red flag.

If it's between ditching the package and returning it for money, which would you pick?

Maybe the contact says shippers only have to fulfill 99% of their shipments, and leftover items (think a reason that makes delivery impossible) can be abandoned or returned for a kickback.

Do you really think Amazon is going to setup a system where only 99% of customers get their stuff? 1% of Amazon's retail sales is $2.5BB in a year.

No, but that was just an example. What about 0.01%?

I don't know much about Amazon's shipment model, but either this guy is telling the truth and there's a system in place, or he's lying. Either way wouldn't surprise me.

That .. still doesn't make a lot of sense. Does Amazon require signatures for some of their package deliveries? (Honestly asking, I stopped buying things from Amazon a few years ago).

I've not had to sign for an Amazon package - or just about any other online retailer - in years. The only thing I've had to sign for in the recent past is my bitx40 hf radio kit, shipped from hfsignals.com out of India.

Amazon will cheerfully leave many hundred dollar packages on my porch. The other day, they sent a $16 toilet seat by UPS 2nd Day and I had to sign for that...

That’s UPS, and more specifically the UPS driver who made that delivery. Our neighborhood is very safe, but has apparently been flagged as a “don’t leave packages” zone in UPS’ system. Our regular drivers know to leave them, but whenever we get a sub or a fill-in around the holidays, we have to deal with trying to convince them to just drop it at the door.

but in this case it doesn't make sense. I could understand returning the packages HE was supposed to deliver, but picking up another package already sitting on a porch sounds stupid: don't they have a way to check that this package was never his to deliver?

I think we're reading too much into the words/actions of a petty criminal. I imagine he's lying and was just stealing packages, or at the very least hadn't thought things through properly.

Seems like a poorly designed incentive on Amazon's part is enough to establish reasonable doubt. You get what you measure.

> Seems like a poorly designed incentive on Amazon's part is enough to establish reasonable doubt.

Yes, but a mere claim by the accused that the policy exists with no supporting evidence of the policy is not the same thing as “a poorly designed incentive on Amazon's part”.

If it's true, it does seem like a bit of a loophole.

Perhaps returning too many of his own packages raises a red flag. Or perhaps it's $x per delivery and $y per return, and returning his own packages would eat into his $x.

I mean, I'm sure amazon have a check in place to stop you just picking up your packages in the morning, returning them in the evening, and picking up $y*packages. That's a little bit too obvious.

But it does seem returning packages that weren't yours should be noticed. Perhaps not impossible (red tape shouldn't get in the way of someone doing the right thing), but at least flagged (this has to look as fishy as it sounds).

you're assuming he's telling the truth..

more likely:

- policy exists for drivers own packages or is poorly checked so that other packages can be returned for the $$ even though they are not that drivers

- thief is using loophole/lack of oversight in policy possibly along with feigned ignorance to make this excuse to make the theft seem like an accident

I don't think a driver with a history of that could get away with it, though. Customers will definitely complain if their package just disappears, and it's not very hard to see which delivery contractors have statistically significant higher rates of complaints.

Fair but $5 isn’t really much compensation to drive out of your way to the warehouse either. Seems like a number that comes from balancing the edge cases of people who might occasionally say fuck it because it isn’t worth it 1 in 20 times, while not worrying about the aggregious violators because they’ll be found out anyway.

There is no such program. This was the thief's lie.

Sounds like an instance of Perverse Incentives: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive

One could argue that returning a package to Amazon that had not been picked up would allow Amazon to avoid losses. But the dark pattern, of offering delivery personnel to return to "you" undelivered packages for a $5 bounty would be one way of using the delivery driver as a cutout.

So like you, I'm really curious about this alleged Amazon program.

I suspect it’s a lot more limited and sensible than it sounds from this brief description, and this guy was just an idiot who thought he could make a quick $5 returning a random package.

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