Kinect by Microsoft Keeps You Entertained Hands Free | Hacker News Reader

Kinect by Microsoft Keeps You Entertained Hands Free

nytimes.com

71 pointscarterac46 comments

I'm a MSFT employee but you guys have to take my word that this is a purely unbiased review. :)

I just played the Kinect all evening for the first time. And I'm still in shock - that thing is magical, like the first time I played with the Wii, flicked on an iPhone or got search results instantly from Google.

Few things blew me away

- How intuitive the controls (or lack of thereof) are. You just 'do'. The Wii was like this too but this felt more natural

- Being able to talk to my Xbox. I've never felt voice recognition was ready for mainstream. I was wrong - talking to my TV felt a bit like Star Trek modulo the computer voice.

- How much fun it was. My wife and I had as fun much goofing off by dancing around and playing around as much as competing.

I can't wait to see more games for it.

"How well doeth Xthboxth Kinect'th voith control handle thpeech impedimenth?"

There will be a special "Igor" version for that. But yeah, I have bluetooth voice integration in my car and I have a tough time trying to make the voice commands work ("call", "setup", etc.), because I am not a native English speaker and have an accent.

I want to see this hacked and be able to connected to my laptop so I can write programs using the Kinect sensor as an input. Think about how wild it would be to write software using a Kinect input as a sensor. For example, you could sit there and wave your hand to move through your email or music or something.

I'm not the only one; Adafruit Industries has a $2,000 bounty for the first Github repo submission that can grab input from the Kinect device and output depth. http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2010/11/04/the-open-kinect-proj...

I suspect that Microsoft would love to leverage the Kinect platform as a way to reclaim relevance in mainstream computing. I'm sure that, with enough success, they'll productize it beyond XBox.

I've thought for a long time that a successful Kinect would likely lead to a Kinect-optimized version of Windows.

reclaim relevance in mainstream computing.

For a certain definition of "mainstream computing".

Since when is MS' platform a niche and its tools marginal? We just had two front-page stories about google suing the U.S. government for its explicit demand for MS technologies.

This is like saying "Toyota better work hard on autonomous vehicles to reclaim relevance in mainstream auto-mobile industry."

Yea, I knew I'd get stung by this. Should I have gone with "consumer" ? Or "mindshare" instead of "relevance" ?

What I intended to get across was that I think Microsoft would love to use Kinect as a platform to recover some of its losses in the mobile, search, and cloud computing spaces, essentially to establish it as the new Microsoft platform to lock in users.

Not exactly a crystal clear explanation, admittedly.

What you wanted to say is that MS is and has been uncool to developers and no one would touch their shite unless coerced by bills or held captive by an employer visa.

(no need to mince words)

Microsoft Sucks(TM) but they have never been good at, or even wanted, consumer lock-in. Microsoft Sucks(TM) but they're not evil, not by a long shot, or at least not good at it.

To us, developers, they're Useful Idiots[1] who do pro-developer things inadvertently, while trying to be evil. Case in point, they made their entire platform COM-enabled in order to ensure Office interop and "invite" people into VB. Really, they had the Web flashing in bright neon and all the dotcoms of the late 90s for omens, and all they thought was "yeah, the future is MS Office, let's just make Windows super accessible" ..

What happened is that the entire MS platform became "callable" from other stacks and people built their own stacks on top of MS'. Flash, Mozilla, Java, Open Office, VMWare, etc. None of them could have existed if MS was "competently evil" at locking down the win32 platform as Apple is at locking down the iThing.

Really, Microsoft sucks at being evil so bad that they're actually benevolent. If I was Roger Corman, shooting a cheap horror flick, I would yell at MS and tell it to get its act together, or get back to Denny's for their shift (most of Corman's lead actors were wait-staff); that's not a way for a proper villain to behave. Truly, the Eric Cartman of bad guys.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

I see more and more people view Microsoft as a harmless, disoriented giant, just like IBM. Thing is, both were actively evil in their heyday. They killed, raped and pillaged until they become granddads and settled.

Microsoft did just buy Canesta (http://venturebeat.com/2010/10/29/microsoft-rumored-to-be-bu... ).

If modified for close-range operation, it could probably be hooked up to a motorized monitor arm, so that the monitor stays perfectly oriented relative to your face regardless of how you adjust your sitting position or posture.

I am hopeful that Kinect is a successful product for Microsoft, but I have some questions.

The Nintendo Wii found success in the market, not solely because of its simple, easy to use controls. In addition to the innovative Wii UI, Nintendo launched a variety of family oriented games that took advantage of the Wii controllers, it had a brand and bevy of characters that it could leverage that resonated with families and kids (e.g., Mario), the Wii console was small and quiet, and the Wii was priced well below the competition.

For Kinect to succeed in the market, Microsoft must introduce a variety of complementary (and compelling) games, it needs to develop a collection of characters and stories that resonate with target customers of the Kinect, and it needs to carefully consider pricing, given that the price of the Xbox 360 plus Kinect (+ additional accessories) could overshoot the comfort level of a majority of consumers, especially in view of the economic recession.

Ultimately, the success of Kinect hinges not only on the Kinect hardware but also on Microsoft's ability to develop a coherent "Kinect strategy" that includes games, characters/stories, branding and marketing, pricing, and so forth. And a key issue is developing a "Kinect strategy" that does not alienate Xbox 360's most important customers, which at present are hardcore gamers. These are the gamers paying for Live and providing the Xbox 360 with the highest (game) attach rate among 7th generation consoles.

> ... but I have some questions.

There isn't a single question mark in your comment. There's a difference between questions and remarks.

Questions as in doubt, hesitation, concern: http://thesaurus.com/browse/questions

> For Kinect to succeed in the market, Microsoft must introduce a variety of complementary (and compelling) games, it needs to develop a collection of characters and stories that resonate with target customers of the Kinect, and it needs to carefully consider pricing, given that the price of the Xbox 360 plus Kinect (+ additional accessories) could overshoot the comfort level of a majority of consumers, especially in view of the economic recession.

Considering how much people continue to spend on the Rock Band accessories - for one game - I don't know that the Kinect's price tag is that significant.

I purchased a Rockband set for 360 from Wal-Mart last Thanksgiving/Christmas sale, brand new, with game, corded drum and mic, and corded guitar for $59.

YMMV.

I've actually had the chance to play with one of these firsthand, and I must say, I'm quite impressed. The only basis for comparison I have is the wii.

Initially, there is some confusion as to what it is you're supposed to do but after a minute of awkward movement you get the hang of it. This feels much more natural than the wii, and the lack of controller is freeing. The full body movement detection is fun and really encourages you to move around. On the other hand, the sensitivity is not that high. It's okay with the casual games it comes with, but I'd like to see some more examples of, say, shooters.

You could always give the player a plastic gun with tracking dots and a trigger. :)

For dissenting opinions, check out Ars Technica's [1] and Engadget's [2] reviews. Both are less enthusiastic, with Ars complaining that the lack of buttons (compared to the Wiimote or Sony's Move) greatly limits gameplay potential.

[1] http://arstechnica.com/gaming/reviews/2010/11/buy-a-house-cl...

[2] http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/04/kinect-for-xbox-360-revie...

More dissent also at Eurogamer:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-11-04-kinect-reviewed...

They bring up the point that you need quite a lot of room for the device to work, you need 2,5m of clear space between the TV and the sofa for two players. And if you don't have that much, don't buy the thing because it won't work well for you.

Apparently if you try to create an open-source driver for this, Microsoft thinks that it's a safety hazard....

  > But Microsoft isn't taking kindly to the bounty offer. "Microsoft does not
  > condone the modification of its products," a company spokesperson told
  > CNET. "With Kinect, Microsoft built in numerous hardware and software
  > safeguards designed to reduce the chances of product tampering. Microsoft
  > will continue to make advances in these types of safeguards and work
  > closely with law enforcement and product safety groups to keep Kinect
  > tamper-resistant."

'product safety groups?'

1: http://www.boingboing.net/2010/11/04/2k-bounty-for-freeop.ht...

2: http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2010/11/04/the-open-kinect-proj...

3: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13772_3-20021836-52.html

I think it's a little BS, but a sensor that can track and calculate a persons movements does have some concerning applications if used in the wrong hands. Namely hook a gun into being able to target via the Kinects output and it'll be able to headshot every time.

Considering that 'duck and weave' has greater survival odds than kevlar, a computer that can accurately track it in 3D space is exceptionally creepy for potential autonomous military actions.

Most human marksman have difficulty with this, and via armed drones they're likely less accurate. This could offer a 'push-to-kill' system for military drones.

However, we all know it's because microsoft wants to make money off of all applications for it.

Lawyers. Sooner or later, someone will plug it in while it's open.

My roommate bought it and invited a bunch of people over. It's actually a lot of fun. More than I thought it would be. Most people seemed hesitant to play... probably because the majority of the games involve waving your arms around like an idiot. It's not quite as bad as that infamous video suggests, but it's still pretty bad.

The motion detection technology is really good. You walk around the room and your avatar moves along with you. You scratch your cheek with your right hand and the character on the screen makes the same general motion.

Voice recognition was mediocre. Had to repeat ourselves a few times, and background noises seemed to screw it up.

Thumbs up, overall.

"Voice recognition was mediocre. Had to repeat ourselves a few times, and background noises seemed to screw it up"

Since you're supposed to recalibrate the microphones if you move the furniture in the room, I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch of people moving around the room could cause problems.

Kinect sounds like some impressive tech, but it doesn't really sound fun to me. Obviously I'm not the target audience, but I wonder how many people out there want to play games in this manner. It might be a cool novelty, but is it a lasting interaction paradigm?

Im sure it will be. the most important ingredient there is the developer/publisher commitment (its strong)

The dance game is a pretty ridiculous amount of fun, assuming you like these sorts of things at all. The casual gamer appeal that made the Wii a success is pretty immediately obvious when you see it in action, and they definitely nailed the technology.

That said, the $150 price tag seems a bit steep ($400 with a console). Early sales do look pretty strong, but I'm not entirely convinced this will get more people to buy a 360, especially if they already have a Wii gathering dust.

Personally I'm most interested in the hacks people will inevitably come up with that take advantage of the technology in different contexts.

I think plenty of people said the same thing about the Wii. It is fun so long as games use the interaction as a constructive part of the game. There are plenty of fun multiplayer games on the Wii that just wouldn't work with traditional controllers.

I had a Wii for a while, and the motion control thing was fun at first, but it wore itself out pretty quickly. I think the thing I appreciated most was the ease of aiming when playing Metroid.

Every major advancement in gaming is bound to leave some people behind. The good thing is at least Microsoft is recognizing there are different types of gamers out there and trying to offering it all on one platform.

I will probably purchase one simply for the navigation capabilities within the XBox's menu system.

I occasionally play games with the 360, but it is mostly used to play media and stream Netflix in HD. (It is connected to an HD projector - 12' diagonal view). Unfortunately, waiving hands in the air while jumping around will block a portion of the projector's path. Sitting on the couch is fine, though.

Can anybody confirm this works with Netflix?

Kinect suffers from the same problem that all motion controls do: the technology isn't there to make it really precise and low latency, and that's a big problem for people who have been playing games for a long time and who have come to expect that precision, even for casual games.

It doesn't matter if the games are casual or not - the games aren't fun to me if I feel like I have to devote even a modicum of thought to compensating for the control scheme, or if I feel like there's even a little bit of "luck" involved. It's like how people complain that Mario Party isn't fun because you don't really feel like your skill has much of a bearing on what's going on - I doubt that most people care about being masters of Mario Party, but with even a little bit of luck, it invalidates the experience. It's not about being competitive, it's about the satisfaction of improving and applying a skill. Sure, if I'm drunk and just waving my arms around and my avatar is doing the same, of course it's fun, but without that precision, it's not a "game," it's a "toy." Toys are fine, but I prefer games.

It's crazy to think that we've got these awesome ideas for motion controls and some fairly impressive implementations that were unimaginable even a few years ago, but no way to make them even as close as precise as the control pads, buttons and joysticks that we've had for decades simply by virtue of the fact that they rely on simple digital technology.

EDIT/ADD: What I'm excited for is when the year-long honeymoon period is over and developers start moving beyond the obvious applications. I want to see stuff like two player games where one player has a controller and the other is using their arms to tilt the playfield or control something else, or a game where you have to stand in front of the camera with a controller in your left and and use your body and the stick at the same time.

Specs of interest from http://www.primesense.com/?p=514

Field of View (Horizontal, Vertical, Diagonal): 58° H, 45° V, 70° D

Depth image size: VGA (640x480)

Spatial x/y resolution (@ 2m distance from sensor): 3mm

Depth z resolution (@ 2m distance from sensor): 1cm

Maximum image throughput (frame rate): 60fps

Operation range: 0.8m - 3.5m

Color image size: UXGA (1600x1200)

Data interface: USB 2.0

Power supply: USB 2.0

Power consumption: 2.25W

Dimensions (Width x Height x Depth): 14cm x 3.5cm x 5cm

My wife and I got this today and it's lots of fun. The motion sensing is really incredible technology, and there could be lots of uses in the future.

So I guess if you combine Kinect with iOS touch/swipe gestures, you can get the Minority Report interface (without the gloves)!

Not to mention that if Kinect can recognize your face well enough to log you into Xbox Live, then those customized interactive wall adverts from Minority Report can't be too far away either.

Even though the global idea sounds great, according to the sensors that they have I don't think that such precision is possible. I am based only in guesses, but with a normal camera, and CMOS sensor (for depth sense using a infrared projector) that have not been calibrated, the software can be able to determine different shapes (bodies) that are moving (background subtraction to detect the velocity, for example) but is not able to have enough precision to even distinguish the different fingers of a hand.

As I said I haven't played or used Kinetic, nor I know the software that is running, but it seems to me that they are parameterizing estimated movements and mapping them into the space of allowed movements of your "avatar".

I've seen a claim of 2 cm resolution.

I have been playing with one for the past 2-3 hours and one thing I am REALLY impressed with is the level at which they have the voice recog. It may just be lots of data they have analyzed from their car kits, but the voice recognition is amazing (no training, multiple people, etc) and much better than I have been witness to inside other auto systems and with Goog411.. As for the visual component, the sensor is already able to pick up minor movements of the hands, if they can get down to finger movements etc I could see this being a huge helper in their auto realm (small distinct finger movement on the steering wheel for channel changing/navigation, etc) . It is an amazing piece of hardware.

Turns out the technology is not developed at Microsoft. They are using the PrimeSense chip, which gives the 3D sense to Xbox. Details here: http://eceplayground.com/2010/09/18/how-xbox-kinetic-works

The chip is just a sensor to get the earliest stage of scene decomposition quick. There's tremendous algorithmic work to be done beyond that.

Will they be relaesing 3rd person shooter/rpg games where your character makes whatever movements you do? You could even walk in place to make him move. Actually pick things up etc.

I think that would be amazing.

Unfortunately, kinect isn't sensitive enough to detect grasping. You'll notice that kinect navigation, hitting a button relies of hovering your arm in place as a bar fills (there are variations), but there's no 'poke' or 'detect fist' there.

You can dream though.

Kinect is definitely disruptive. Which is all the more impressive considering the Wii has been on the market for some time, yet Kinect is not just a Wii motion control imitation (as the Playstation Move is), it's something similar but very different.

It's probably too soon to tell how significant Kinect will end up being, it'll probably be follow-on generations of Kinect games which will prove whether it'll be a game changer or a dud.

I almost thought this was going to be about Office 2011.

I was hoping it was about http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1871608

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