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Comment by bruceb | Hacker News Reader

The problem with Customs and Border Protection is the attitude. They do have a challenging job. 99%+ of travelers are legit and doing nothing nefarious. They have to pick out the ones who are not legit/up to no good. I have no problem with them asking questions of myself or other travelers, even a lot of questions.

The problem is the attitude and abusive nature of their conduct. I have had this experience a couple times and one time with my mother and I am a citizen. Plenty of other countries have customs/border agents that quiz you without attacking or belittling you.

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I agree.

I went through the TSA checkpoint at the United Premier Access this last Tuesday. They have the new automated bin return system. Some of the people who travel less frequently were leaving the bins behind instead of putting them in the machine to be returned to the front. The TSA agent shouted at them repeatedly, "do any of you read English? Can't you read the damn sign?" While he pointed at the instructions. He did this for the entire time I was near the checkpoint.

This is belittling. Not everyone flys frequently and knows this process. How about respecting them and teaching them the new way?

I wanted to say something to one of the other agents, but why risk ending up on a list especially when it's this hard to get through now.

I travel frequently and those machines at lax always throw me off. And they expect you to stand right up next to someone else while you empty your pockets. Literally feels like I’m cattle.

> Literally feels like I’m cattle.

That might actually be the intent - make people feel uncomfortable so they get more uncomfortable if they're up to no good.

I think you overestimate the competence of TSA. Last I had read, TSA had never prevented a terrorist attack, and has an abysmal record in tests where people try to get things like guns and knives past them.

TSA is security theater. Nothing more.

No, it's a liability transfer from the airline industry and a subsidy to various contractors. Sure, security theater is the cover for all that, but it's not just security theater.

I refer you to Hanlon's Razor.

I think it has more to do with lax not having space for huge security lines (see terminal 3, what a freaking joke that is).

Unfortunately this kind of behavior probably stems from their upbringing, not saying it's right, if you feel insulted report it: https://www.tsa.gov/contact-center/form/complaints

I had this at Gatwick last year...

"Hey idiot, get your goddamn bags off the (expletive) belt! Hurry the hell up!"

At which point another passenger decided to take advantage of the confusion and tried to steal my phone...

"God (expletive) damn you! Are you trying to make my (expletive) life hard?! Just take your bags and go, you're holding up my line!"

Approached the airport, "we do not comment on security matters".

"How can I take this complaint further?"

"You'll need to ask your solicitor to contact our legal department."

And then there was Stockholm Arlanda...

(On the way in) "Good morning Sir. Welcome to Stockholm."

And on the way out...

"Sir, is this your bag? Can you please turn the laptop on for me?"

'Do you need me to log in, it's for work...'

"Oh no, I just need to see it turn on."

The laptop thing is actually common.

Confirming the functionality of laptops (especially larger or older ones) is within the guidelines Just making sure it's not a bomb.

Easy to bypass though, just like all security theatre.

Helsinki: "why am i being checked?" smiles looking stupid "no really, why am i being checked" "i don't know, i just work here" "so you just follow orders blindly? can someone explain what's going on" no one could explain anything because Helsinki airport is a piece of..., same as Gatwick or Luton.

regarding TSA, since I don't have facebook, snapchat, instagram it's always scary talking to them.

> since I don't have facebook, snapchat, instagram it's always scary talking to them.

why?

Stasi thinks he's hiding his real accounts

because they assume everyone has at least some account and if you say you don't have any, they will think you don't want to provide it

There could be a problem also with legit accounts with the same name as you or, even worse, fake accounts created with your name for some reason (from bots to exgirlfriend revenge to I'll reserve this name "just-in-case"). You don't know that those accounts exist, but they can take a quick look and think that you are a lier. They do not have the time or the desire to verify that. I remember a twitter "pvaldes" account created minutes after declinate to upload a photo of my face to a popular freelancer platform. The account showed a naked guy seen from behind showing his bottom in a pool, a location similar to mine, and not much more. Maybe is still opened, I really don't care.

So, probably a better answer would be "I had seen accounts in facefook/twitter/whatever with my name but aren't mine. As you can see, are mostly inactive or is clear that I'm not the same person shown in those party photos".

A solution is not forcing yourself to pass by this cattle-treatment if the country is so unfriendly to foreigners.

> Helsinki: "why am i being checked?" smiles looking stupid "no really, why am i being checked"[..]

In Helsinki, and in a lot of European countries, there's a little gadget in the security check which will randomly select someone for a manual search. It takes the security officer out of the equation.

If it's actually dice-roll random, I can see that working pretty well. It's actually fairly common to use "random coin-flip" type machines in retail -- you do random bag-checks of staff, and they push the button on the machine. Either "search" or "no search" lights up.

The probability is set according to the risk factor of the store, anywhere between "nobody gets searched, this is just to scare you" and "everyone gets searched, no buts".

In my experience, it usually gets set to about 15% probability. Just enough that a few people get searched every week, not enough that everyone has to stay behind for an hour waiting for bag searches.

In Norway we can click on smiley faces after security to say how the experience was, going from good to bad, there was an article in the news the other day about how they used the results from this survey for setting bonuses for the agents working in the different airports

I am American, living in Norway. I got searched while coming home from Amsterdam. Its OK, I understand, it is Amsterdam, after all, and they want to make sure I'm not smuggling stuff. And I pack very lightly, which doesn't help matters at all.

I've never been treated so well while being searched. The guy was kind and polite and smiled a little. I also learned that in his opinion, Americans were usually pretty easy to deal with, but more nervous in general. He thought it was because we (Americans) were used to a more authoritarian-acting police.

I used to get searched all the time in Seattle because I was coming in from Beijing and must have looked suspicious or something. Anyways, I was never treated poorly in the red line by immigrations and customs. Just one point of anecdata, Seattle is a sleepy place and the airline staff is usually a bit nicer.

I’ve never had to go through an extended customs search in another country, however.

> because I was coming in from Beijing

> and must have looked suspicious or something

Can it not be that you were coming from Beijing?

No, my Chinese colleagues on the same (direct) flights were never searched, just me.

Random searches should be the norm. Same for tax evasion, for example.

No. Just like every fucking where they should have a very good reason to search you, and they should receive a giant fine for searching for no reason.

Fuck this authoritan border shit.

Why not? If it is completely random, it is actually fair, and it'd filter out the people who seem suspicious but who are not. If there has to be a very good reason in order to search (probable cause) then people who understand the pattern can avoid it. If there is a completely random chance you get the special treatment, people will always have to be careful; not just when they're being suspicious.

Because you should not have less right on the borders than elsewhere.

I know the courts don't recognize it; I will be dammed before I let laws determine justice.

Except you're between borders. You do have the very same rights airports as borders as well. Customs can check every person who decides to pass the border. That they don't is their choice; not yours. Don't like it? Don't leave your country.

I've gotten searched every single time I've went to Canada.

The last time they searched my car, stripped searched me, threw all my stuff on the ground, and after finding nothing told me to "pick up my garbage."

The bright side is, I was only held for 5 hours that time, but I did have a gun pointed at me. The first time was 9 hours, so maybe next time it will only be 3 hours.

Some people are just pathetic humans who get off on being above anyone else.

/I never had anything illegal any of those times and tried to be very respectful. I worked with law enforcement for many years, and know the type of people that they can deal with.

Also, everyone involved was white, so at least there wasn't racism...? I don't know, it's all dumb. None of my complaints went anywhere, and last time I called they said I "had nothing on file anywhere."

Going to Canada or coming back from Canada?

I’ve never experienced that either way across the Vancouver area border crossings.

Going to Canada. I can't remember the exact locations, but the two that gave me the most headaches were the one in northern Minnesota and the one in Montana. The one in North Dakota did look through all my stuff, opened bags, but let me be on my way in an hour or so. That was my best experience so far.

Every time I went from Canada to America, they looked in my trunk, moved some stuff around back there, and said I could leave.

I still haven't been given any reasons why that happens to me, but my name must be somewhere important.

I just learned to get used to video chatting instead of seeing relatives up there. Much less of a headache.

I have seen those in multiple countries, and couldn't really say there is any correlation with friendliness.

But they do have managed to vastly improve my mood, via a different sort of mechanism: when I'm being treated rudely, I tend to linger at the machine, usually waiting for fellow passengers to clear security. During that minute or two (or five), I train my Nintendo skill on the :( face. My high score must be in the thousands.

They probably filter out such data. But maybe not–I kind of prefer not to know.

I get lots of cheeky smiles from other travellers noticing me, so the happiness even spreads. Only got yelled at by security once.

I always assumed it was for travelers to be able to give a quick feedback to get the frustration out of their system and be done with it. So was a bit surprised to see that they where using the data, of course when workers know how much money they get depends on them providing a good service, they will try to give a good service

I always find it funny when they place them outside of toilets. Like, who in their right mind would push them? Heck - some of them are even touch interfaces so you can't use your elbow.

I use a paper towel to touch them, just like with the door handles

just to clarify ... a member of gatwick airport security staff said that you?

>"Hey idiot, get your goddamn bags off the (expletive) belt! Hurry the hell up!"

>"God (expletive) damn you! Are you trying to make my (expletive) life hard?! Just take your bags and go, you're holding up my line!"

That all sounds so un-british I can't imagine this playing out. Which part of security were you in?

I've flown through heathrow, gatwick and other uk airports loads of times and never seen anything approaching that level of rudeness.

Really? I've gone through a good number of British airports and I've seen similar scenes play out (typically not directed at me, though.)

British security/police seem to take their power a bit too far very often, in my experience. They have absolutely no problem with a little shouting. Of the first-world immigration officials I've had to interact with I'd rank them perhaps second worst, for general cluelessness and authoritarian behavior.

The typical British "don't say or do anything, just tut" behavior does apply often: Public displays of racism? Civil liberties being taken away? A simple tut will do. But if you're British immigration, then shouting incorrect or confusing instructions is just part of the job.

The number of times I've seen this is too high, and that's not even including the number of patronizing and wrong instructions I've gotten, either. For example, getting shouted at that I should have presented my American passport when I presented my Dutch passport (...what?)

"British security/police seem to take their power a bit too far very often"...

And that is the actual problem here as well. At the airport you end up in a "your rights end here" zone. According to the original story, the questioned person had no right to a laywer as he was not arrested. But he was also not free to go. So there you are: stuck between a rock and a hard place... Sure, you have every right not to unlock your phone. But you will go nowhere, miss your flight, your connecting flight, etc. And all the officers just go home when their shift is over and forget your case ever happened...

> That all sounds so un-british

Consider in your calculations that a queue was being endangered by the behavior they were complaining about.

I can absolutely imagine this at any airport besides Heathrow in the U.K. Heathrow tends to be a bit more polite and more efficient.

Can confirm! London City, as I said, is a hair nicer but that's primarily because it's a business airport which generally caters for a small number of flights (compared to Heathrow or Gatwick).

Can confirm.

Heathrow terminal 4 staff is one of the rudest I have encountered. They have not been rude to me personally but every time I have been through that terminal I have seen staff being rude and racist to travellers. I have seen folks being physically pushed around to form queues, to make them hurry. This is not a one time experience. Dont recall if they were British Airways staff or airport staff.

I assume your quotes aren't verbatim, because those are some very un-British colloquialisms. Having said that, I know that TSA agents have worked at Heathrow and Gatwick before. Maybe he/she was one of those.

It's not a direct quote. One because I can't remember the exact words verbatim (this was last year) and two because the ones I could remember, I translated to American for the benefit of the HN audience :)

I think that the primary reason is psychology. People wanna feel safe. I was flying to Gatwick from Bilbao (EuroPython) and I walked into the plane like into a train. I was stunned. No one has checked my bag, no scanners. What is the point of all this fuss with security in UK if I could just pick another airport as a my entry point?

TSA is a jobs program for people who aren’t willing to do real work.

Harsh, but agreed. I have a relative who is older and retired. Got bored sitting around the house, so got a job with the TSA. He'd never held a job anything remotely to do with security, research, or investigation...

> TSA is a jobs program for people who aren’t willing to do real work.

The overt function, employing in many cases the exact same people, existed before it was federalized, so, no, that doesn't really explain what was new about TSA vs the status quo ante.

Isn’t the attitude intentionally intimidating, and a core part of the screening process? If someone is nervous and intimidated they may show cues that earn them additional screening.

> Plenty of other countries have customs/border agents that quiz you without attacking or belittling you.

I agree. I am Canadian, but I went to school in the US. After school I returned to Canada. A couple years later I had a US work visa to train Americans on a particular technology that my company specialized in, and I was maybe the foremost expert in (outside of the manufacturer). I wasn't taking anyone's job, I was literally helping Americans keep their jobs instead of being replaced by me or someone like me.

Anyway, on one particular trip I was called to secondary inspection and the CBP officer who received me there went on a long tirade about how I should work in my own country for a change. I mean, I did work in my country most of the time (I was still well within the 183 day/year tax treaty limit). He got so mad he actually walked away before he even asked me any questions. I was just standing there, confused, embarrassed and left feeling guilty even though I had done nothing illegal or immoral.

But, there are good people in the CBP too... one saw what happened and came over and profusely apologized. He asked a few questions, apologized again, and sent me on my way. On the flip side, I've had my computers and phones searched by Canadian Customs and they've done so with tact and compassion, which seems to be much more effective -- it's amazing how much more cooperative people are when you treat them with compassion.

But that's not just CBP, that's true for every industry that I've worked in... there are a few assholes everywhere and everyone else who is cool is a lot more effective because they approach people like they're working together rather than against each other.

I’ve been to Canada numerous times and the agents on your side are so nice. Also never really had a problem with us agents other than they all seem over worked and under paid. At least that’s what their attitude comes off like to me. I do remember one case where a Canadian agent asked what my profession was and at the time I said “web developer” but they heard weapon developer. Pretty funny and awkward.

And Gesh, I know of some people that cross the border a lot but don’t have nexus or global entry... it’s so worth getting.

> it’s so worth getting

Agreed, I can't imagine not having it these days.

That thing saved me 5 hours on its first day.

> don’t have nexus or global entry

I am sorry, not a native speaker. What is "nexus or global entry"?

It's a known traveler program you can pay to be a part of that includes fingerprinting, background checks, etc.

After passing verification, they give you a card, and reentry to the country is much easier (go to a kiosk, get a receipt, show it to a border guard, get through in <5 minutes).

Basically services where you can pay a few hundred dollars a year and get "pre-screened" so you have to do less when entering another country. You also get to go to the nexus/global entry only line so your time spent in line is often shorter as well.

> few hundred dollars a year

Nexus is $50 for five years (and includes Global Entry and TSA pre-check.

Global Entry is $100 for five years (and includes TSA Pre-check)

TSA Pre-check alone is $85 for five years.

If you’re near a Canadian border, Nexus is the best financial deal. None of them are “few hundred dollars per year”.

Also, many travel credit cards will cover the $50/$100 charge whenever it needs to be renewed.

NEXUS: https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/nexus

Global Entry: https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-...

I was texting with my phone while waiting next to a busy looking entry point at an airport in Canada; I was not going to the US, I was heading back to Europe.

An airport person asked me if I have a Nexus. Somewhat absentminded while texting, I said yes I do (my phone was from the Google Nexus line).

"Right this way Sir!", and I followed him for 10 meters.

And then at that gate entry eventually I pieced it together that my phone was not the Nexus they were looking for, excused myself and went away wondering why air travel seems to make me hypoxic.

On the flip side, I was traveling to/from Canada covering an IT director’s opening while we interviewed for a replacement. I was questioned at Canadian border and sent to the “penalty box” (secondary inspection) when asked why I was coming to Canada so much and responded that I was interviewing for a factory IT director position. I was interviewing as the hiring manager, but CBP was all fired up and yelled “Can’t your company find a Canadian to do that job?!” “Yeah [dumbass], that’s what I’m here trying to do.” Got over to secondary and they had a chuckle at the story and welcomed me into Canada.

The US doesn’t have a monopoly on thinking foreigners are coming for “our” jobs.

> But, there are good people in the CBP too... one saw what happened and came over and profusely apologized. He asked a few questions, apologized again, and sent me on my way. On the flip side, I've had my computers and phones searched by Canadian Customs and they've done so with tact and compassion, which seems to be much more effective -- it's amazing how much more cooperative people are when you treat them with compassion.

It doesn't even have to be compassion. Just get some people who either have compassion or can act as if they have compassion. Both work.

Judging by the stories I read here and elsewhere, the TSA seems to be some kind of organisation where losers end up, allowing them to vent their frustration about X or Y towards helpless, dependent people.

I go to Canada twice a year and get treated like absolute garbage by their border agents every time. Absolutely no problems coming back to the US.

That's been my experience every single time I've went through the Canadian border too.

First time they held me for 9 hours before forcing us to go back. They rejected my friend because of an "expunged" disorderly he got when he was 13.

Ok fine, it's their country.

Next time I was held for 5 hours, strip searched, had my car searched (they did a garbage job of it), threw all my stuff on the ground even after knowing there's a $2000+ piece of hardware, then once they were done they told me to "pick up your garbage."

I've also had a gun pulled on me that time, but I could tell that the second CBP that was there saw no reason for any of searches, gun, or anything and he talked her down.

Still not sure why the hell she wouldn't tell me why she wanted to search everything. She said I couldn't leave until she was 100% certain. Certain of what? she wouldn't say.

Anecdote:

About a year ago, I went through TSA and asked to opt out of the body scans in place of a pat down.

Another agent on the side watched the whole thing and made kissing faces my way the whole time while making gay jokes.

It was extremely belittling. Fuck TSA.

> Another agent on the side watched the whole thing and made kissing faces my way the whole time while making gay jokes.

They need badge numbers and names prominently displayed on their uniforms, written in inch-high characters.

Are you me?

Had a really similar experience until I said that “this is the cheapest rub job I’ve ever gotten” and winked at him. He didn’t appreciate that.

Tbh I seem to be making it my life’s work to be a little shit at airport security. I will _never_ use the millimetre scanner which seems to be a huge point of contentenion. And, while not TSA, the Gatwick airport security were trying very hard to convince me that I didn’t have a solid reason not to use this thing. Almost calling me silly or implying I’m stupid.

On the same trip I tried flying with half a tub of hair créme (layrite) and, while I managed to fly in from Copenhagen with the tub, apparently Gatwick has different rules, so if the container has the potential of fitting more than 100ml it’s disallowed.

Empty bottles are fine, but even a single drop of water makes it forbidden.

It’s. Ludicrous.

Wow. I thought the experience I had with Gatwick was a one-off... :(

These days I aim for London City or Leeds-Bradford if I can, Heathrow is my second choice, and I'll actively avoid Gatwick and Manchester unless there's no other alternative.

I keep meaning to try Glasgow or Edinburgh for departures... I've flown into Edinburgh due to a KLM screw-up but never departed from there.

Oh, interesting! Would you be willing to share your gatwick story?

I had no idea it was usually like this.

I posted it elsethread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18714315

Basically, constantly rushed by the security staff, and another passenger tried to make off with my phone (the guy next to me stopped him by asking "Hey, are you with this guy (me)? I think that's his...").

From my experience, flying out of Edinburgh the staff have all been pleasant enough, but depending on your luck the queues at the security bit can be a bit annoying.

Manchester is the one airport that I will flat out avoid. It's up their with some of the worst US airports, and unlike those airports, has alternatives in reasonable distances.

You can even see by the passive aggressive (and consistent device) signs in security "All electronic devices must be taken out. Small electronic devices are excluded. Failure may result in delays of up to 2 hours" that it's an institutional problem. iirc they had some distinction where being battery powered meant it was a small electronic device, unless it was an iPad.

Add to that usual airport inconsistencies like "do I need to remove an 8inch tablet?" from my bag. A 10 inch tablet is pretty universally required to be removed, but I've been instructed both to return my 8 inch tablet to my bag or to remove it from my bag and sneered at for getting it wrong, sometimes at the same airport.

Or let's talk shoes + TSA in the US: Some airports require them through the scanner, others will look at you like your crazy. This will often not be reflected in local signage.

But then threatening a 2 hour delay for not reading their mind is just dumb.

In my final visit to Manchester airport, apparently an 8inch tablet does count as a small electronic device but a PS4 controller does not. Therefore I was supposed to conclude from the passive aggressive sign that the tablet must be in my bag and the PS4 controller must not be in my bag.

I've never travelled through Manchester. But I travel a lot, and what I do is simply to grab a bunch of trays, and add all my gadgets (and camera, if I have one) from the bag and put them on a tray. Including the little Kindle. There's no point wasting time asking. Sometimes (b/c this depends on the local rules of the country, and they change too) the security will notice and say 'no need, keep the camera in the bag', but if not, it does no harm. I don't remove my shoes unless there's a sign saying that I must. As my shoes don't have any metal in them there's never a problem. But I always wear simple shoes that I can just flip off in a moment, without bending down, just in case.

What happens if you decline the millimetre scanner in a UK airport?

Gov't guidance states that ‘...the individual must either be screened by an alternative method which includes at least an enhanced hand search in private...’ [0]. Is that just a standard pat-down, or is it more ‘eeny meeny miney mo, I wonder where my glove will go?’

[0] https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...

They make it look more intimidating than it is, it's a standard pat-down in a room, the most invasive thing they did was put a finger in my waistband and rub around it.

Same as a normal in-public patdown tbh.

I (an average white dude) always ask for the public pat-down. Never in private. I want as many people as possible to see this.

Don't come to Australia: no opt-outs here, either you submit to the scan or you don't fly today.

I had no idea.

Thanks for informing me, I will (with a heavy heart) strike Australia off my list of available working/visiting places.

The new laws surrounding encryption should have tipped me off.

Thanks for letting me know. :)

> I will _never_ use the millimetre scanner

Genuinely curious, is there a reason for this, or are you just fucking with the security?

I don't know about the OP but I have hardware attached to my body that can't go through.

I also have clearly labeled liquids (for medical reasons) which by law I am allowed to carry. At SLC the TSA meticulously opened each one, ruining sterility so I had to discard the lot. Fortunately I got home safely.

Not OP but I don't trust their data security and privacy practices and don't like the fact that it's based on gendered patterns (I get my hair ruffled through because I put it up and I'm a man, I can't imagine the horror pre-op trans people go through).

I rejected the body scan and so they did a pat down. I definitely felt my nuts gettin touched a bit. So I ripped ass as loudly as I could once his head was around my waist.

The search went from touching every point for "weapons" to immediately letting me through. Didn't even finish the pat down. So if you want to get through quicker, eat some taco bell I guess.

Maybe they thought I shit myself, but whatever, some of those bastards are scum. Not all, but enough of them are.

> I have no problem with them asking questions of myself or other travelers, even a lot of questions.

According to your own rules you only really have to demonstrate citizenship. Whereas in this case that was already established and the person was still being harassed. I'm not a US citizen but did study in the US for a while. I've decided against going back to the US for almost a decade now because of this. Your own officers don't follow your own rules about your own citizens. I'm not chancing it as a foreigner.

These people are tasked with the impossible job of choosing who to harass or detain based not on real criminal activity, but on the basis of who they think might commit a crime at some point in the future. It is an insane task on its very face, and to top it off they are given wide discretion. It attracts a very special kind of cop.

This shit is totally illegal inside of the country. Some legal and mental gymnastics allow them to throw due process out of the window at the border. It’s inhuman.

CBP has sexually assaulted my travel companions simply for traveling with me; when I travel with people now we go through US customs separately to avoid any women in the party being finger-raped by America’s Finest. (I am singled out for harassment for consistently exercising my 5th amendment rights at all US border entries for 3-4 years in the early 2000s.)

Land of the free.

I couldn't agree more. Just recently we visited Hawaii with our 6-month-old daughter. We were going through security and got pulled aside because one of the baby glass bottles was filled with water.

About 20 mins of bomb testing and pat downs later and making us and our daughter drink the explosive water... To be fair most of the people working that day were fine, it was just one complete moron calling the shots that made it 100 times more difficult than it needed to be.

Wow that's terrible. Even if you suspect it isn't water, would you really make a baby drink it??

My "best" experience was getting called for a questioning, having to wait 1 hour while missing my flight, while guys that were supposed to interrogate were having a "coffee" break in a booth few metres away.

When the guy turned up (R. Torres on the badge) he was visibly drunk.

The TSA's mission is to "protect the nation's transportation systems to ensure freedom of movement for people and commerce." Preventing someone's freedom of movement because they weren't permitted to browse his phone is entirely contrary to their stated mission.

This isn’t TSA, it’s Customs and Border Patrol. Whole different can of worms.

I think your last sentence should say “without”, not “with”.

yes, edited, thanks.

To me this sounds like complete lack of training.

At most airports when they ask questions they don't care about the answer because they are trained to observe you while you answer.

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