From what I've read, the main opposition is only coming from Americans... oddly enough.
Precisely because Americans are concerned that the technology as prototyped in the Chinese market might subsequently be applied in a dark-future American market.
It's not farfetched considering the current political climate here.
Google is headquartered in the USA. Not only that, but the engineers working on Dragonfly also reside and work in the USA. As such, not only is it not surprising that the main opposition is coming from Americans, but American citizens have a unique right to express it and have something done about that.
If Google execs want to operate in China without being impeded by the American public opinion, they are welcome to spin off an independent organization for Dragonfly and headquarter it in China, where there are no such pesky obstacles.
Anyway, I will give you one thing: for Chinese it's about to have an obviously better product to use. It has very little to do with morality when they support it. Of course it's not the case for Americans (or any Westerners) as it doesn't directly affect them.
The Chinese are putting people into concentration camps on the basis of their ethnicity or religion, many are dying and their organs are being harvested.
If the Western press weren't so hypocritically afraid of speaking out - this would be a huge global story, it's a really big deal. This is getting into holocaust territory in 2018 for gosh sakes.
And it's definitely more than Americans speaking out.
The history of what did happen is that after Mao the country went from struggling to feed most of it's people to what is likely the 2nd most powerful country on Earth. It went from GDP per capitalism of $1,000 in 1970 to $8,000 in 2010. China singlehandedly halved global poverty in doing so. While some of it's actions are appalling to foreigners, they are tolerated for historical reasons. E.g. distrust of organized religion stems from repeated religious rebellions that killed tens of millions of people, so many Chinese see the suppression of religion as a necessary measure to ensure social order. In that sense many Chinese have the same underlying ethical framework (don't needlessly cause harm, try to better the lives of everyday people, etc.), but the lessons history taught the country means that they pursue these ideals in a different way, and opt to make different tradeoffs when balancing different needs. While I am indeed apalled by some of the CCP's actions, I can empathize to a degree as to why Chinese people would still have a positive view of it overall.
Of course, this is coming from a Westerner summarizing my interactions so it obviously risks putting words in other people's mouths.
And FYI - any otherwise civilized place that was held back by totalitarian communists, or ruined by war was able to 'bounce back'.
All of Europe was in ruin in 1945 - they also grew by 'leaps and bounds' after that time. China just had to wait for Mao to die.
More poignantly - none of this can dismiss much of the abuse - it cannot be written of as 'cultural difference'.
With that history, I think a person can genuinely, earnestly believe that the CCP's policy towards Uhigyrs or Falun Gong is limiting human suffering in the grand scheme of things. This is what I mean when I say that it's possible to have the same underlying values, but people from different societies can come up with drastically different or even conflicting implementations.
This is moral relativism to a degree. But empathy is an exercise in relativism. I don't like what China is doing to it's religious minorities, and I don't want this post to come off as trying to justify it. But if we do want to convince the country to change it's ways I think it's important to see why the country is doing what it is, and not pick an easy conclusion like saying China or the CCP is immoral.
You are justifying, on cultural grounds, the mass incarceration of a minority because 'they could pose a potential social problem, even though they are not presently' which is abhorrent.
Yes a 'cultural context' of Han ethnocentric racism and open bigotry, perhaps, but of course this isn't really justifying anything.
There is no rationalization for arbitrarily incarcerating massive parts of the population, it basically doesn't make any sense at all.
Especially considering the none of the Falun Gong, Tibetans, Uighurs represent any threat to China's peace in the first place.
Every place on Earth has had some degree of calamity or violence in the past, and China has definitely had it's share of mass murder (giving and receiving), there's no shortage of this in their own history books, if anything they should be even more enlightened about it all.
There are no cultural arguments that can be made here, the situation, particularly because of the deaths and subsequent organ harvesting, is approaching 'holocaust' terms.
> they could pose a potential social problem, even though they are not presently
It's because
> This region is exhibiting separatism over religious lines, and our country has an established pattern of religous separatist movements turning into catastrophic wars that claim tens of millions of lives.
In short, while Westerners might see mass incarceration of religous minorities and think, "holy cow, if we don't do something this will be another Holocaust" Chinese might look at Uhigyr separatism and think, "holy cow, if we don't do something this will be another Taiping rebellion". The former occurred more recently, but the latter was several times larger in magnitude. I'm not Chinese myself so I can't speak to the magnitude of the Taiping rebellion in their social memory. But the point is I can at least empathize with their point of view even if I find it's results abhorrent.
And as I have stated repeatedly, do not mistake justifications of Chinese opinions as justifying the actions themselves, and I have repeatedly stated that Chinese treatment of Uhigyrs appalls me. The fact that you accuse me of justifying their actions in spite of explicitly stating otherwise is indicating that you aren't reading my comments with the degree of attention that is necessary to have a productive conversation on a controversial topic like this.
However, there are other sources of information selectively filtered by media. For example,here's a story of a famous Uhigyr celebrity went back to her alma mater (in Chinese):
https://www.backchina.com/news/2018/11/20/594759.html
The Uhigyr celebirties are disproportional more than Han based on their poplulation. But they seems to work/live like nothing happen although the whole world are angry. There are 2 possible reason:s
1. They(all of them) don't care about their compatriot
2. They know the "camps" but they also know the real nature of the "camps".
Most Chinese know these celebrities very well through entertainment news. One even show up on TV almost everyday. If you were a Chinese , which reason would you bet?
3. They are disgusted by the camps, but they know if they speak out they'll end up inside one.
China keeps a tight leash on its celebrities. The government is willing to make even internationally famous ones like Fan Bing Bing disappear for months without explanation. It probably wouldn't take much to make one of the Uhigyr celebrities you mention disappear permanently.
What I said to the other commenter also applies here: don't confuse my empathy with why these camps exist with approval.
Moralizing is an easy to way to stop thinking and settle in a comfortable narrative, a cop-out so one can avoid questioning their own ideological identities. The thirst for a comfortable narrative is so strong today few can resist it, which almost looks like we live in an era when we can no longer afford entertaining different thoughts.
Would I be ok now with now with grabbing every random moron wearing commie t-shirt and throwing him into re-education camp? No. 15 year old me who just finished reading Archipelag Gulag and was finally told my family history during Holodomor? Well I would get a rope, find a tree and get to work.
Things like this are very complicated. Having said that Google is idiotic trying to reenter PRC market. Communist party will never allow them to grow to any degree there if they have any independence, they would need to become a servant of the party 100%, even then.. likely they will just get all of their tech stolen and bunch of intelligence officers placed into leadership roles. There is NO path for them to grow in China and succeed, what they sell is too valuable for control of people to allow foreign controlled entity any growth inside PRC.
What?
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.147...
Tolerant is absolutely not the word I would use.
A few glossy points are made here that rides on a racial or national stereotype.
1. It was Chinese government put people in concentration camp, not Chinese. In the current political atmosphere, I am very cautious to draw this line as a Chinese myself, for the fear of mobbing attacks on Chinese people oversea.
2. many are dying and their organs are being harvested
You need to have reports to support claims of such outrageous behavior. Also it's not clear what is the actual things being done.
Are people dying naturally in the camp, and got organ harvested? Or they were left to die without reasonable medical attentions.
I presume the organ extraction has not got consent from the people, right?
As far as #2, it's splitting hairs. People are put in jail because of their ethnicity or faith, and one way or another, organs are being harvested on mass. Discussions of 'did the prisoners approve of their dismemberment after execution' are just a little insulting really.
It's 2018, this is happening.
It's definitely interesting that Chinese nationals were almost universally for dragonfly and yet the "progressive" activists didn't care at all, preferring to pivot the topic into nationalist rivalry. Ask them in a vacuum and they'd say they treasure diverse perspectives..
Riskier to speak up pro-dragonfly inside Google on an h-1b visa than it is to speak up against dragonfly from outside China IMO.
Human rights are not subject to a simple majority rule.
And this whole thing isn't about what Chinese want. It's about what Americans are okay with helping Chinese do. If the majority of Chinese support labor camps for ethnic minorities, that's one thing; but when American citizens aid them in filling those camps, then those citizens are a fair target for their compatriots, regardless of what the Chinese think about it all.
The US has our own issues, and I'm not comparing or trivializing anything, but you'd be nuts to say that Google should boycott America over them.
If I was American I would be ashamed to comment on human rights abuses.