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Comment by skilled | Hacker News Reader

These apps make no sense to me. What's wrong with going outside and sitting still? Do you really need all this tech/sounds/talking/etc,. to find stillness in yourself?

Meditation can be tough to learn, but you only have to do it once. I find it hard to believe that one can find true balance in their practice by using a meditation app. And what is the deal with having to pay for something that's essentially free?

Is it the entertainment value, or is it so that we can tell our friends, "Hey John, I just spent $5 on that new 'stress release' meditation and I have been feeling so zen!!".

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Why pay a personal trainer when you can just do pushups instead?

Why go out for dinner when you could just cook for yourself?

Why pay for a therapist when you could just stop being depressed?

Why pay for a financial advisor when you could just do your taxes yourself?

Exactly, very good question.

Why not just do pushups, walk the stairs or just go running, cook for yourself and your friends, know yourself instead of paying for therapy. Even doing taxes yourself isn't such a burden.

I feel like your human experience may be significantly different from many other human experience.

Glad you can just decide to do those things, do them and stick to doing them! Well done.

It's really not that hard to find out at least one reason for each of these.

Because just doing pushups is not enough and even those can de done badly. Because cooking yourself is a completely different experience from going out to eat, part of the experience is precisely _not having to cook and clean_. Because some people can't help themselves and could end up in really bad places, because for some people spending time doing taxes could be very well used otherwise...

I advise everyone reading Die Kunst des stilvollen Verarmens. Wie man ohne Geld reich wird [The Art of Growing Poor Stylishly] by Alexander von Schönburg.

This is a book about why you do not really need all this stuff that commercial capitalism is trying to sell to you. It has inspired me years ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander,_Count_of_Sch%C3%B6n...

https://www.rowohlt.de/fm/592/sample%20translationSchoenburg...

https://www.amazon.de/Die-Kunst-stilvollen-Verarmens-reich/d...

Skimmed through the sample translation and to my surprize not everything said there was as obvious as I was expecting it to be. Thanks!

The samples are hilarious and thought-provoking. I’ll have to brush up my German to read this. Thanks for the recommendation!

Except most people don't, wont, or can't.

I got myself fit as I was able to plan for a healthier lifestyle and see it through. Not all folks can.

I wasn't able to get myself mentally healthy however, and without paying for mental health support I would never have had the mental stability to get myself physically healthy.

If you find life easy, good for you, but assuming everyone skips through life as easily as you is arrogant at best.

Headspace is great. Is it as good as heading to a monastery and studying for years? No.

Could you get the same experience without guidance? Sure, but most people haven't got the will power to stick to it. That's not a weakness. That's just human.

If you honestly can’t think of why anyone would do any of those things, you lead an incredibly blessed life.

Spot on, and I would have written that comment if you hadn't beat me to it. Once or twice a year I find myself in a restaurant setting, often reluctantly. The other three? Never.

I'm not convinced that throwing money at the problem is the solution to everything. I think sometimes it takes actual personal effort.

Yes and apps are a middle ground for many people between their own lack of resolve and the major investment in time and often money that finding a group or trainer represent. Pretty awesome segmentation! You'd be amazed at how many adult runners start out on beginner apps / programs like it and join a running group, to give an example from another market. What apps are missing is a way to capture value from that platform way of thinking. (I understand localization is hard and very labour intensive thus far away from an apps core.)

Did you go to a university? If so, do you think you got more out of "throwing money" at professors than you would have just trying to figure out [physical chemistry | architectural design | machine learning] yourself?

Your examples don't make any sense - neither by them selves nor with respect to the criticism they are aimed at.

Similarly you can say Why sweat it out and do the hard work when you can just buy an abcrucher, abroller or slim suana belt that promise the same result without any effort.

These apps too are meant to lure our lazy instant gratification craving part in exchange for money.

I can only speak for Headspace, but there's nothing "instant gratification" about it at all. In fact, stuff like "this is a lifelong practice", "it's a struggle sometimes/at the beginning", "there's a lot to learn abput your mind" are constant refrains.

Of course, you can still be cynical about that and say it's a great way for them to keep you subscribed.

But for me, it's been a good introduction. I've been practicing regularly, I introduced a friend to it, and we have decided to sign up together for a retreat in the spring. So it's not necessarily just mind candy to pad out your credit card bill.

Every single one of those questions has the same answer: Because they have knowledge that I do not, and can help bring the results of that knowledge into my life.

If an app brings change into your life, via application of knowledge you do not yet possess, then it has value. Whether or not these specific apps meet that criteria is, however, a question worth asking.

I suspect a better place to start is one of the excellent books on mindfulness meditation that's available now.

The Mind Illuminated by John Yates is the one I see recommended the most, and it's helped me tremendously. It goes through ten stages, from novice to very advanced. I'm still close to the beginning, but the instructions in the first several chapters have helped me make far more progress than I ever had before.

The Science of Enlightenment by Shinzen Young is also quite good, with more of an emphasis on insight rather than concentration meditation. There's also the classic Mindfulness in Plain English.

I do use one app. It lets me set a countdown timer, and plays a quiet gong when time is up. That's it.

A bit late for the party, but there is really good reddit community around the Mind Illuminated.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheMindIlluminated/

Wow, thanks!

You’re missing an additional answer:

Because they are paid to be uncompromising about your goals, so that when you’re weak they’re strong and push you to be better.

Here my own experience with headspace.

I was meditating for some time, but I felt like I wasn't making any progress. I know the point is not to aim for progress, but I was and it was discouraging. So headspace helped me back on track.

I really liked Andy's voice and the guided session helped me see meditation in a different light. He uses all these metaphors to make you realize that thoughts are constantly passing, that you shouldn't judge yourself for getting caught up in a thought pattern.

I would say that the biggest advantage to meditation apps is that they distract you from your own thoughts and draw your attention to certain topics. They can also teach you how to relax when you're finding it hard to do that by yourself.

Also, I want to add, I stopped using headspace, because I didn't feel the need for guidance at some point. Actually, I felt it was distracting me, so I returned to meditation without any guidance or other devices.

>Meditation can be tough to learn, but you only have to do it once

it is hard to learn. been to a 10 day vipassana retreat this year, and out of 100 hours of sitting, i've spent maybe 5-10 truly concentrated, and we're talking perfect conditions, with some prior experience

the most difficult part in my opinion is getting the reference point for how meditation should feel like - you can spend years doing what is breathing exercises, visualization, etc. never hitting that point. this is where Muse (https://choosemuse.com/) helped me tremendously

commercialization aside, the real question is about the value of guided meditation most of these apps are about. like, honestly i don't know.

I've been curious about the Muse device. Do you still use your every practice?

occasionally, like 2-3 days straight after a longer break from the practice, to tune in, or at random, to gauge how consistently i can clear my head

the main selling point for me was the api, and possibility of using it as a brain-computer interface, but i haven't done anything fun with it yet (except of setting up the drivers for python, and verifying it indeed works)

Yeah, I feel the same way. I'd go so far as to say that even being near my phone makes it harder to concentrate. If I want to meditate, I turn it off. (Not on silent, but off. I find great comfort in not being near powered-on electronics).

I feel the same about meditating near an powered-on electronic device, but in modern world it impossible to escape from EMW emitting devices. You can turn off all wireless capable devices in your home but can't control devices in neighbor house or nearby cell tower.

I have personally had more satisfaction meditating outside in fresh air near natural environment than indoor. I also know of many meditative experts who routinely visit remote areas in forests to practice deep concentration.

I would like someone to build an app to locate more favorable spot for meditation by calculating net wifi traffic in air.

Oh, I don't mean that EMW devices make it harder to concentrate. I mean that my brain is conditioned to divert attention to electronics and turning them off is the best thing I can do to control my own impulses.

I think that you are brave to state that you prefer to meditate away from EMW devices on HN. I pinky-swear that I'm not trying to be a jerk.

It's true that we're bombarded by wireless signals. In addition, we're bombarded by all manner of noise and radiation, both terrestrial and from space. It seems a little bit foil hat to imply that you can meditate better if you turn off wifi in your subdivision, doesn't it?

The book "The Science of Meditation: How to Change Your Brain, Mind and Body" talks about how having a teacher or going on meditation retreats will help you become better at meditation than just going it alone. Although these apps in no way compare to a teacher what is wrong with people using them as a support (As I do myself)? If they get people starting down the path to a daily practice, then I don't see what's so bad about them. To those dismissing people that do use them please practice some loving kindness and try and understand why we might use them.

> talks about how having a teacher or going on meditation retreats will help you become better at meditation than just going it alone.

Maybe I'm cynical, but that reads like a pure monetization strategy to me.

My reading of the book suggests it has nothing to do with monetisation, but is based on years of scientific research. I'd highly recommend the book if you want to find out how meditation effects your brain.

Can someone help me understand, or reference an article, what is hard about meditation? Or what are people seeking to improve upon when seeking meditation servicss?

I found the following hard and found an app useful in mitigating these:

* Initially, committing to a daily practice. After 6 months this problem disappeared one my meditation became a habit.

* Getting comfortable with the different techniques. Focusing on your breath is fairly straightforward (in practice, but equally quite difficult to start with) whereas techniques such a loving kindness and resting awareness can be a bit tougher to understand. The Headspace forums suggest everyone struggles with certain techniques, so having a guide was useful (for me).

From reading of "The Science of Meditation: How to Change Your Brain, Mind and Body" it seems there is always more to learn but as an app meditator I can only give you the above experiences.

Have you tried meditation? It's hard. Try sitting for 15+ minutes, not moving, and concentrate on one thing (like your breath) without getting distracted. Maybe it's easy for you.

There are many distractions that can happen, not necessarily mind-wandering. There are other distractions like getting bored or falling a sleep, discomfort in the body (which includes itches, pain, needing to move, etc.), outside noises, forgetting to focus on your breath, etc. Your mind is constantly seeking new stimulus while you're trying to calm it down.

For me, it's hard to do that without getting distracted. Maybe the easiest part is remembering to focus on the breath after you get distracted. But that's also easier said than done.

Yea. I try meditation, and I consider myself really bad at it. This is because, like you said, it's hard to remain completely focused on something simple for long; but more importantly, it's not helping me with my objectives here: giving my mind rest, and extending my attention space and cognitive energy.

So here's the thing, whenever I read stuff on meditation, it often quickly veers into these frankly even sometimes pretentious discussions and concepts that I honestly dont understand. I could be wrong, but it reminds me of a lot of the hand-wavy "bro science" workout advice I've heard.

The best ways I've found to meditate, or rather I should say to at least reach my goals of meditation, so far are a hot bath or listening to music.

There are many forms of meditation. The particular forms being popularized by these apps actually is of the more difficult forms to achieve. Revealing my age, back in the mid 70's when I became interested in meditation, I surveyed the available forms. There was a lot more readily available information on mediation back then, without the click-baiting poor journalist wrapping too. All the information back then was organic and authored by the practitioners themselves.

Anyway, I choose Transcendental Mediation because of the form of the meditation: one is assigned a nonsense mantra phrase, which the meditation technique is nothing more than finding a comfortable position, closing the eyes, and repeating the mantra in one's head for 20 minutes. Thing is, after about 5 minutes a complete psychedelic trip occurs; the nonsense mantra fills your head with nothingness, no logic to "think". After 5 minutes your brain just trips. I'm aware of the mantra's echo, but I'm in fractal landscapes skipping tra-la-la with Bambi and blue meanies. Really.

This is why I think all these meditation apps are a joke, as they impede too much, they guide too much to enable experiences as I get when I meditate.

There have always been meditation teachers, practice programs, books, all kinds of materials. Monasteries are like huge complicated frameworks for meditation. In our culture we instead have apps. Maybe that's kind of lame, but it is what it is. And it kind of scales more economically...

> having to pay for something that's essentially free?

At least it's cheaper than the Transcendental Meditation snake-oil course (sponsored by your favorite celebrity):

https://www.tm.org/course-fee

Humans have always had a dependence upon technology to garuntee them happiness (i.e. television, apps, social networks, automobiles, housing markets, etc). As technology improves, our society becomes more and more reliant.

When technology fails us for one reason or another we seek a form of change (i.e. shutting off your brain for a moment, meditation). However since our society has developed dependencies on apps, we seek the solution in the exact madness we’re trying to escape. To err, is human.

I learned through face-to-face instruction with a teacher, some fifteen years ago. These days I consider the experience invaluable. There's something about having another person there legitimizing what you're doing, which is basically sitting down and daydreaming, that soothes the conscious mind and allows it to take the task seriously.

I don't know how much value an app can be in replacing a real person, but it's gotta be better than nothing.

Ever hear of a book? Traditionally, they are far better than an app, and in many ways better than a human teacher at your side. Meditation is one case where a book is probably the best guide. Speaking as a Transcendental Meditation practitioner for over 40 years, started in 5th grade back in '76. My Iowa church and school freaked and even tried to claim my meditating was a satanic influence on other kids... If it's not Satan it's Capitalism fucking with meditation. Why are people so tribal stupid?

"Ever hear of a book?", "Why are people so tribal stupid", "Speaking as a Transcendental Meditation practitioner" - questionable whether meditation is helping you. :)

Nothing about meditation dictates one can't get angry amazed at people acting stupid. It's not enlightenment, it's a method of refreshing and relaxing.

I think it's far from settled that books are better than apps. I read a ton of books when I was a kid, as I got older I spent less time with them. I consider quality video content to be better than books at conveying information.

I personally could have probably muddled through learning how to meditate with a book, if I'd had the inclination. I'm not so sure most people can. All people unfortunately aren't created equally.

All the people I talk to who don't seem to be getting much out of meditation, I'm not so sure any book could have helped them, while I'm pretty darn sure that if they were sitting in front of me allowing me to guide them once a week, they'd get the trick within a month or so.

Sure, but without these apps, perhaps millions of people wouldn't have been interested in meditation.

I mean, you certainly don't need a Fitbit or Apple Watch to change your habits and start to exercise regularly, but for some people, having the feedback from these devices help them see their progress and that's what keep them motivated.

It's a good question. As someone who has practiced meditation in fits and starts over years, I can only say for myself that Calm provides a structure that helps me make sure it actually happens. I use the Apple TV app mostly, and I've been meditating much more consistently over the past few months than I had previously.

You have a good point, but at the same time what these apps offer is step by step guidance. Some people, I'd say most people don't even know where to start and this is exactly what they offer. Maybe a vague example would be paying for a gym membership.

Agree so much. At its core, this is just another example of a well-tested strategy to make money - take something simple, make it complex, then sell a teacher/guru/app who makes it simple again! Same reason why so many books that could be 5 pages long are 200 pages instead - 5 page books don't sell.

Not to say its all a scam - it does genuinely help to have a trusted teacher in many cases, whether its for accountability and a push or just reminding you of the basics.

I guess what seems more distasteful to me is how much meditation is being marketed as the new self-help cure-all to stress/anxiety etc. Its makes you wonder how many people need it because they are stressed vs. how many people need it because marketing manufactured that need.

> Meditation can be tough to learn

And these apps are a way of learning far cheaper than hiring a coach irl.

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