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Comment by Waterluvian | Hacker News Reader

From my amateur perspective, i think the history of how people treat others with depression may be deeply rooted in the Human flaw of, "the way I experience the sensations of existence must be how everyone else does."

I can't exactly fault the default response to be, "I don't get it. Just get off your butt and go for a jog. I always feel better when I do that."

I remember being so ignorant to depression until I experienced it myself. It's unlike anything else. Your drive to persist is just missing.

P.S. the entire lecture series this one is from is worth watching.

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I can't exactly fault the default response to be, "I don't get it. Just get off your butt and go for a jog. I always feel better when I do that."

I've been living with depression for almost two decades now. I took up running a few years ago and you're right, it did make me feel good. But there was no way for me to keep it up through the Waterloo winters with mountains of snow, disgusting brown slush, and deadly black ice.

So I stopped late in the fall and restarted in the spring. I tried to keep active during the winter with an exercise bike and a rowing machine, but it's not the same. Every time I got back to the spring it felt like I was starting over.

Now, just over a year ago, I started university (at Waterloo) and the enormous challenge and stress of the workload drove exercise out of my immediate priorities. With the stress I ate more and gained weight, and stressed more over school without the calming relief of exercise.

This past summer I tried taking up running again, after exams. I ended up breaking my ankle, which is not surprising given that I was so out of shape and trying to push myself too hard over a shorter window.

Now the depression is stronger than ever. I don't know how I'm going to finish my degree.

I'm a UW grad and have the same story. Find my contact through my profile and shoot me an email if you'd like. Or try to reach out to on campus counselling services. They may very well have saved my life. and I have to say, things are very different and so much better now. It's amazing how much life can change in time.

UW grad here, I was suffering through undiagnosed depression and adult-onset ADHD. One of my biggest regrets is that I was not properly diagnosed until my thirties. GP, do follow Waterluvian's advice and seek help. Now is the time!

Have you tried lifting weights, get a couple of kettlebells, watch some youtube videos, most are HIIT routines, they give you both a cardio/weight training workout. 20 mins all it takes, when I can't get to the gym, that's my go to.

I was going to suggest the same thing. The spetnatz and some navy seals guys say it's the next best thing to a gym.

Check out this routine:

https://www.strongfirst.com/achieve/sinister/

Have you tried Vitamin D and magnesium aminoacid chelate / orotate / citrate.

On the one hand, answers like this always seem to over-simplify. Oh hey just take this vitamin and the soul sucking demon that's been riding on your shoulder for years, decades, will magically go away.

On the other, I spent nearly two decades of my life suffering from this horrendous illness, and nothing has helped as much as daily magnesium does.

I take a big Magnesium pill, a men's health multivitamin and I add D in the winter. Even my sleep apnea went away, and there's no damn reason that makes any sense.

Biology is stupid.

Iron / Vitamin D / and maybe Magnesium (this one is still new for me and I can't find a good way to get it. What's a good brand for this?) is always my first check for whenever I fall into a slump.

If you are depressed/whatever always check your stats if you haven't already (i.e., take a blood test, check your vitamins). Maybe it won't help, but better get that out of the way because those things can make a dramatic difference.

I'm continually amazed at how many people on a host of antidepressants never done any kind of test with their GP.

Not affiliated in anyway, just a happy customer.

I buy quite a few things from iherb.com, their shipping from California to Tasmania is quite swift, and they sell a brand called Now Foods which seem to consistently have what I want at the best price.

Any of the magnesium glycinate, citrate, orotate, here https://www.iherb.com/c/Magnesium should be okay. You just want to avoid magnesium oxide, it's poorly absorbed and causes water retention in the guy, possibly leading to loose bowels.

Here in Australia we're lucky to have a few brands that do good magnesium gylcinate / citrate / orotate powders with cofactors - a few B vitamins, but especially B6, folate, B12.

One good way to lose yourself in this is to start with The Nutrient Bible by Henry Osiecki.

Mostly I just want what it says on the label to comply with what is in the bottle. So I'm generally not happy with "should be OK", I want "someone tested this and it actually does have this much Magnesium in it specifically".

Yeah, tricky. I think Australia generally has more rigorous regulations / standards. But maybe I'm just deluding myself.

Maybe you could import a few pounds of magnesium glycinate and have it tested, I've heard the testing isn't that expensive when you're dealing with multiple thousands of doses of a product.

There is a website called Labdoor which does exactly this.

Thanks for mentioning this, I hadn't seen it before.

Damn, nice.

And, yikes: https://labdoor.com/review/solgar-magnesium-citrate

I've been taking this magnesium: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BD0RT0

But I think it may have been discontinued or changed recently- my orders on Amazon say the ASIN that I ordered no longer exists? Regardless, "Magnesium Glycinate Lysinate Chelate" is the keywords I'm looking for when I find a new source.

I'm taking a single 100mg pill per day, though I've recently noticed the recommended dose is 200mg. shrug I guess 100 is enough for me, when combined with my other dietary intake.

I asked my GP about testing for hormonal imbalances and she said, and I quote, "Here at $HOSPITAL, we only follow the western medical tradition.". Getting such a condescending, canned response was really disheartening, and I didn't pursue that line any further with her.

Yeah, on the one hand I'm strongly against drive-by one liners, on the other hand vitamin D cured me.

I was already taking magnesium, B6 ... everything else.

8000 to 12000IU of Vitamin D a day for four weeks weeks cured me of my suicidal ideation / depression / emotional instability / irritability.

I went to the doctor and got a prescription for antidepressants a couple of times, drove to the pharmacist and sat in the carpark in my car crying for half an hour before I drove home without getting the medication.

Vitamin D was the keystone that's made all the other supplements work way better.

Now I'm on a much lower maintenance dose, a few hundred IU a day average taken as larger random doses throughout the week.

I guess it makes sense if I think about it, I get almost no sun exposure, and when I am outside I'm covered in long sleep and pants because the sun here in Tasmania is either too low in the sky to warrant shorts and a tshirt, or it's summer and the sun here cooks my pale skin in minutes.

Your millage may vary. Vitamin D and magnesium are considered very non-toxic even at stupendously high dosages for short periods of time. And they're both fairly cheap.

Disclaimer: this does not constitute medical advice, do your own research, and all of that. I'm not insured to give nutritional advice.

did you get tested for having low vitamin d or something? how did you end up deciding to take that much?

I didn’t bother with a test, the symptoms, when I finally connected the dots, were indicative enough for me to give it a go.

It’s not uncommon for doctors around these parts to prescribe pharmastist depended 20,000IU gel caps, after a test of course.

Also, there was an article doing the rounds a few months back indicating we neee way more vitamin D than the current guidelines. I’ll see if I can dig it up.

Edit to add: here we go https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15867918

One is strongly advised to measure D to get the levels of both D25 and D1,25 forms of D when one suspects D deficiency. Normally only D25 is tested, but that may miss the case of low D25 and high D1,25. This happens with some chronic infections when the body shifts D towards D1,25 to rise immune system activities. Taking D supliments then suppresses immune system. As a result one may feel better as there is less dead bacteria or viruses that the body needs to get rid of and that may cause allergic reactions and even depression. But then the underlining infection continues unchecked and long-term effects can be bad.

I haven't heard of this axis before.

Can you point me to some further reading, thanks.

I'm not in any high-risk categories for asymptomatic chronic infections, so I'm not sure this is a concern.

There remains a question: should health, asymptomatic, fit / active, non-smoking, non-drinking, individuals, undergo a barrage of tests at Medicare's (public health insurer in Australia) expense?

Also, I studied nutritional medicine in a formal setting for four years, so I consider myself sufficiently qualified to make that call. Otherwise, you're probably right, it makes sense, in general, for people to have tests for nutrient deficiencies, especially if there are comorbidities.

See [1] or just search for “vitamin D immune suppression”.

I very much agree that a healthy person should not do random tests. But when there is a suspicion of deficiency, one should investigate thoroughly before taking big doses of a steroid hormone that may suppress immune system otherwise known as “Vitamin D”.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4160567/

Thanks for the link, will have a read tonight.

> , on the other hand vitamin D cured me.

That's what my aunt says about homeopathy.

Amusing.

On the one hand, homoeopathy is just expensive water, so it probably can't do much harm. Except that people might substitute it for actual medicine, or other therapies, that do work.

On the other hand, placebos work, so <shrug>.

On the other-other hand (you make me wish I had three hands), vitamin deficiency is a real thing.

> On the one hand, homoeopathy is just expensive water,

No, it's not, homeopathic remedies have been recalled multiple times for having serious harmful ingredients, most often dangerous levels of things on the official ingredient list that would not be possible with the claimed dilution.

The thing to realize with homeopathy is that it claims to be made by a process that would leave only expensive water, but because of that it is not subject to the kind of controls which would provide any advance assurance that anything like the claimed process is actually used. So, effectively, homeopathy could be just about anything.

Yikes! Right, well, that's none good.

Yeah, I added the vitamin D after spending most of a winter in Edinburgh. Lovely city- but it's 56 degrees north. That city will get less than 7 hours of daylight today.

At the winter solstice, the city I live in, at 41 degrees south, gets 9 hours and 10 minutes of daylight.

I spend 10 of those indoors at work.

It's not feasible for me to get enough sun light most of the year.

What I learned from my time in Edinburgh was to make time in the winter. Go for a post-lunch walk when possible. And of course take supplement too.

Hypothesis: lots of different micronutrient deficiencies (as well as factors unrelated to nutrition) can cause or exacerbate depression.

For a lot of people, supplementing with a specific vitamin/mineral will help. For many others it will have minimal to no effect.

I agree. Vitamin D deficiency can be tested for, and the symptoms are well know.

It's probably worth having a test for Vitamin D if you have any depressive tendencies.

I'm going to try this. Thanks

I second this approach.

I used to be extremely depressed. If you are low on a single vitamin or mineral it can mess you up.

Most of the food we eat now tends to be lower in key micronutrients. Add stress, caffeine, lack of sun, alcohol, lack of sleep and those micronutrients can get consumed or flushed out of your body fast.

Exercise can also deplete those key nutrients due to sweat.

Now I take a shotgun approach, supplement all vitamins and minerals and then begin trying to add more structure and discipline to my life to control the feeling of helplessness and chaos.

Depression is complicated.

Buddy, I’m not too far away. I’ve done a lot and I’ve got a lot to share— especially if you need some encouragement. I’m in Toronto now, but happy to help. I come from the rural reaches of the province so I know it can get hard. Let me know. Happy to talk.

UW grad here. Running has really helped me maintain motivation and life outlook throughout the years. When I was at Waterloo during the winter I would switch to swimming, which while not quite as enjoyable for me as running, was still hugely beneficial. I dealt with a sprained ankle last year and had to switch back to swimming while it healed. I don't know how much you enjoy it, but if you're just inexperienced at it, it's definitely worth the effort to become better.

Therapists are also great. PM me if you ever want to talk.

Give swimming a shot? Low impact, highly technical (which makes it fun), and a great workout.

I believe in you. You sound very smart, and sound like someone that can have a lot going for them. I think it’s super awesome that you can self “diagnose” your struggles. I have two points and I hope they help you gain some clarity or maybe spur some thoughts.

1. You mention the weather changing affects your jogging. What stops you from moving somewhere more south where the weather is better year round for jogging?

2. You seem to be able to self reflect which technically means you know how to “fix@ what’s going on. That’s amazing!! The fact that you can self diagnose and talk about it is leaps and bounds ahead of most people. I guess what I’m getting at is if you can self diagnose I’m willing to bet you can self heal just as easy :)

You sound super smart and I know, you know, how to get things back on track!

Hang in there, friend. Heal that ankle properly and start at it again slowly. Add some resistance training, like dumbell weights. I have struggled with depression for almost 30 yrs now and still haven't found a "groove".

You are well on your way having found ways to manage and cope. In addition you have identified the converses, as well - the things you need to watch for.

That's my view of it as well. I distinctly remember both states of mind: not understanding and intimately understanding. I'm not sure there's a way to bridge the gap, the ignorance and incredulous attitude I had was unassailable.

I remember it with shame but I hold onto the memory so I never forget what it's like to not understand someone else's life or perspective.

Yep; but I think is also the fault of the educational system, like nobody told me when I was young that even the worst pain I have ever felt is not one percent of how bone cancer hurts, that I have never felt an amount of confusion that compares with schizophrenia or alzheimer, an amount of apathy and disdain that compares with clinical depression, and so on.

Exactly my thoughts. Lately I've been using the intoxication metaphor because most people can relate to it. I use it by asking... "Could you explain the feeling of severe intoxication to someone who's never experienced it?" Would they truly understand?

Of course not. It's impossible.

The same is true of severe depression. Your entire state of mind is altered in a way you have very little control over. It's impossible to relate to it unless you've been there.

Along the same lines, you can't tell a depressed person to "just be positive" any more than you can tell a drunk person to "just sober up". I mean you can, and they can superficially appear to do so, but it's unsustainable in any meaningful way.

> "Could you explain the feeling of severe intoxication to someone who's never experienced it?" Would they truly understand?

Hm, good thought experiment. My first thought: foggy headed like after getting only a few hours of sleep, but actually feeling generally happy rather than grumpy.

Depression is harder. Take your groggiest, most unmotivated feeling, remove the grogginess and add incredible frustration and helplessness over the fact that you have no reason to feel that way and seemingly no influence on it.

It's partly true, but there's also a "I suffered too and had to crush through life, why won't you ?"

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