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Comment by polartx | Hacker News Reader

Ah yes, because Samuel Slater smuggled cotton spinner trade secrets out of England in 1789, China is justified committing IP theft today.

Sound logic

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The logic is "if you've used it to become the richest nation on earth don't knock out others using it to become rich".

And those that still benefit from the heads-tart due to their country/ancestors having done so, shouldn't play it holier than thou either.

Not to mention the whole hypocrisy, since the US has used corporate espionage and actual spying on supposed "allies" corporations since forever and still does, plus using their military and diplomatic might to ensure cheap resources, control of trade routes, use of its currently, and bending "banana republics" to its will and installing friendly lackeys to the detriment of their peoples. Case in point, this vintage gem posted today:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18683073

If he was smuggling, it was a crime then, it's a crime now.

If you're referring to Slater, it was not a crime in the U.S., and explicitly legal for quite some time afterwards. See the links I posted in another comment here.

There are many things previous generations did in the name of economic progress that we would find wrong today (slavery, child labor, etc). Times change and I should not be required to defend the morality of my ancestors. That is not hypocritical.

>The logic is "if you've used it to become the richest nation on earth don't knock out others using it to become rich".

Cool, so you have no issues with China, India, Africa accelerating their use of fossil fuels.

Not really unless US and West want to give subsidies to these countries.

What’s the alternative for them, to not have a middle class lifestyle? Especially since the US is the historic greatest emitter of CO2, and per capita still one of the top? Or are we living beyond our means and unwilling to step down..

No, I don't. Especially since those pointing the finger still have the most carbon- and materials-expensive lifestyle, and have refused to sign environmental agreements for decades...

At this point, personally, I have issues with anybody using fossil fuels. We do have alternatives now. We can talk social justice and whatnot but it'll ring hollow when civilization is collapsing around our ears, especially since Africa and India will likely suffer before the U.S.

To be fair, a lot of countries used methods to get rich (or try to) that are absolutely despicable and far, far worse than IP theft: slavery, colonization, straight up plundering, genocide, war. Basically every country of moderate size and of decent wealth today has at least part of that wealth attributable to something that could be called truly and utterly despicable.

I think that until maybe 70 years ago, countries did whatever they could to get ahead. If it was possible to accomplish, and it provided an advantage for the country, the country would do it. Nowadays, countries mostly do what they can get away with. The amount of things they can get away with has shrunk over the years, but there's still a hell of a lot of unexpected leeway, particularly if you have something someone else wants. For example, you can infer that Europe having cheap natural gas is more important than doing something about the Ukraine-Russia conflict.

Ultimately, that's it: in 2018, countries can enforce IP law a bit better than 300 years ago, and as a result they are going to. I don't think there's any American campaign to be more lenient on China for IP theft and I don't see such a campaign gaining traction. It certainly is interesting to watch the whole thing play out though.

The real issue is that developed countries don't help other developing countries develop. The US got rich in the same ways that China is now getting rich, by stealing.

I think this is my favorite article on the subject.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/08/08/china-is-cheating-at-a-...

No need to go that far back. Try 2013.

And unless anything changed since the Snowden revelations, the US is still conducting (or attempting to conduct) industrial espionage to this day.

In some cases they were in direct violation of agreements they had with other countries concerning such espionage[1].

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_espionage#Germany

If Snowden revealed anything it's that there is lots of hypocrisy involved and for the most part American citizens are in line with that hypocrisy as long as it does not effect them personally. And if we see China's behavior it's in line with accounting for this hypocrisy. Sure the US calls them out on it all the time, and they can't respond to the allegations... But similarly their citizens are on board with their hypocrisy. It's a world full of liars looking to exploit however they can so they can get to the top and remain there. It's all propped up on a commonly accepted fiction, if you did a bit deeper you see all the fictions are there to support various power structures and keep them functioning.

So can you blame China or the US... Not really everyone is playing the hand they were dealt the best way they know how.

I'm an American citizen and I'm not on board with the hypocrisy. Everyone should follow the rules to the best of their abilities.

No, Samuel Slater smuggling trade secrets was a consequence, not a reason, of the same sound logic that also makes China ignore the IP laws of other countries: if there's a group of other people with a mutually beneficial agreement, who expect you to play by their rules without getting any of the benefits, then fuck 'em.

The definition of theft of IP is entirely a product of local jurisdiction though, given we are talking about temporary monopolies on ephemera and not physical protection of personal claims on objects or spaces.

China defines IP theft the same as EU and USA (more or less.)

Clearly there are some differences of opinion, given the context.

My second paragraph is why I think China might be justified to some extent. My first paragraph was only to say that I don't think China's culture is unusually disrespectful of others.

We smuggled those silkworms out of China and can make our own silk now!

Those silkworms were slaves, and trafficked.

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