CLEAVE – Ergonomic Mechanical Keyboard | Hacker News Reader

CLEAVE – Ergonomic Mechanical Keyboard

trulyergonomic.com

28 pointsmethou54 comments

I used the old version of this keyboard for a few years. I liked the layout; it has the advantage of being fairly similar to a standard QWERTY keyboard (e.g. a non-split or Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000) but with a few modifications to make it more compact, and so it's very quick to learn.

Major downside would be that it died within 2 years and I couldn't get any response from support, and the website stopped selling them without making any explanation of whether/when they would be available, so sibling comment complaints about poor customer support seem to suggest a theme here rather than an isolated negative interaction.

I ended up going deeper down the rabbit hole and trying an ErgoDox (https://ergodox-ez.com/) and then settling on a Keyboardio (https://shop.keyboard.io/). These have more extreme key remaps, so it took a few weeks to get back up to fluent typing while coding, but I'm fairly happy with where I've ended up.

Same thing happened to me: I loved the layout, but the keybord died after a year. I switched to a kinesis, since I know other people who have kept theirs for years.

I miss my Kinesis QD ergo. They were good boards. I kinda wish I had fixed it instead of giving it away to someone who could but oh well.

I think a keyboard has to split in two to be truly ergonomic (otherwise it isn't really adjustable to the user). I was a happy user of an ErgoPro [1] for a year until it stopped working.

I tried the Ergodox but really didn't like adapting to its compacted layout. I am about to purchase a Mistrel Barocco.

[1] http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/

I have to agree. This situation has been bothering me for quite some time. In the last 8-10 years (who's counting), I've gone through four Matias ErgoPros. Their rate of failure is much higher than I'd expect for a mechanical keyboard, but I've yet to find a better board (despite the build issues and sticky keys problem).

I've looked and looked, but haven't yet any better boards to suite my simplish criteria:

a) Mechanical b) Split (and not fixed) c) Full-ish key layout

At least when you have a stack of ErgoPros, you can start mixing and matching the working halves.

My Kinesis Advantage failed within 3 months. That was really disappointing. It had the phantom key presses and ghosting issues too.

The Matias ErgoPro is hands-down the best keyboard that I've ever used. When it works.

I had both the standard and low-force keys. One was a warranty replacement for the other, I forget in which order. Both boards had sticking keys within a year.

https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards

I had a period of being enamored with mechanical keyboards, but not any more. I tried various switches, high-profile, low-profile, always looking for the end-game keyboard. In the end, I realized that I still had more fun typing on Apple Wired Keyboard or even basic keyboards like Logitech K120. I don't imagine coming back to mechanical keyboards any time soon. I'll stick to scissor switches for the time being I guess.

>Apple Wired Keyboard/logitech k120

...how do you prefer this? it's just one step above typing on a touchscreen, keys are mushy feeling and i keep mistyping because i don't get feedback. also using for long periods of time is murder on the wrists

how long have you been held hostage by these kinda keyboards that you prefer them now

I used something similar to the k120 (no idea about the apple one) over the years. I get feedback and I don't have those huge valleys between the keys.

I can't do 10 finger typing and I don't write long texts, so that might be the reason.

The external Apple keyboards are not as mushy and and bad as you make them out to be. I don't know about the logitech, but I've worked with an external Apple keyboard for a number of years now and it works great. I like the newer variant somewhat less (it has less travel), but my previous version is still going strong.

See, it's weird, but I feel the opposite. The high-rise of mech keyboards forces me to put my wrists in an awkward position. The long distance of the keys makes my fingers tired quickly and type slower. With low profile keyboards my hands flow over the keys very quickly, with mech keyboard I find myself having to delay myself a bit with each key to make sure it's pressed.

Unpopular opinion: I really like the new MacBook keyboards. I can't speak for their durability, but I like the typing experience on them.

I was right there with you until my final attempt which sealed the deal and helped me figure out why I struggled with the first few tries.

The big clincher was the switches. So many mech nerds pine over the clicky bs. NO. THANK. YOU. The magical solution for me is using Cherry Speed Silver RGB switches. There are basically hair trigger switches, no clicking, none of that crap. They respond like a low profile laptop keyboard or whatever, basically, near instant activation. The rest of the travel is just there to buffer your effort. You can literally lightly touch to type which is actually my normal typing style.

So why bother? I game. And I want a reliable sturdy, FIXABLE keyboard for that. Also, it looks cool and is highly customizable. I use it across 3 computers and it's nice to have my mapping swaps just built in, no worrying about mapping that in software, etc.

(Rest of the specifics for the nerds: iGK64 board, wood case, with oem profile abs caps for the translucent goodness, though, cherry profile pbt caps feel real nice too.)

Optical switches such as Flaretech switches might be interesting if you want near instant activation. An example is the Wooting One (TKL) and Wooting Two (full) [1].

I've settled for a HHKB with BT/USB. It is ideal for *nix and development. For gaming, I just use my current mechanical keyboard though it is noisy.

[1] https://wooting.io/wootingone

Aside from the switches, which do sound interesting, it seems a little less ergonomic than an Ergodox[0] or Kinesis Advantage[1].

0: https://ergodox-ez.com/

1: https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/

I'll give it points for the arrow keys. There just really isn't much in the way of good positions for arrow keys on a split layout. That said I don't like what it's doing with the thumbs. Thumbs want to move radially more than in and out.

I have my Ergodox set up so I hold down a thumb key and it activates a layer so my right hand has arrow keys and pgup/pgdown/home/end right there on the home row.

I can't live without it now.

My keyboard is set up in a similar manner but it adds a point of complexity. Ctrl-Shift-Arrow is harder to use since the Fn key is trying to take up a thumb.

I still prefer that complexity to having to move my entire hand from the home row to use the arrow keys. I'm very used to it now.

>Slim Body made of high-grade Aerospace Aluminum alloy

Why is this good? Does my keyboard need to be resistant to cosmic rays and stuff?

What are the benefits of an "high-grade Aerospace Aluminum alloy" for a keyboard?

I used the original Truly Ergonomic (TECK) for several years and really liked it overall. However of the three I bought, two had serious key chatter issues and it's very difficult to get any support. The company has a really poor reputation as demonstrated by many threads on Geekhack (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=89035.0)

I switched to the Ergodox (currently Infinity model) and am very satisfied, but they can be a little difficult to source. Hopefully this new model is a viable alternative.

What does key chatter mean in practical terms?

Also what was the learning curve like for these strange split keyboards like Ergodox?

Key chatter means you press the key once and it outputs several presses. In my case it didn't happen consistently, so was incredibly annoying.

I'd estimate ~3 weeks of very regular practice to get up to my previous typing speeds on the TECK or Ergodox. However before that I'd also learned to use the Kinesis Advantage, Freestyle, and even the FingerWorks TouchStream (http://www.ergocanada.com/products/keyboards/fingerworks_lp....)

I was up and running with the Ergodox EZ Glow within a day, I did fiddle around with the key layout for awhile but it's settled into place for me pretty quickly.

It's dramatically more comfortable and I would never go back to a stock tenkeyless. I held out for an Infinity for a long time, then EZ added addressable LEDs and the difference between it and the Infinity now consists of things I don't plan to use.

My layout, in case anyone finds this interesting:

https://github.com/mnemnion/ergodox/

Read this great blog post about Truly Ergonomic chatter.

http://www.cataclysmicmutation.com/2014/03/28/truly-unrespon...

I have two of them (apparently I had to learn the lesson twice), both exhibit chatter to varying degrees. It seems to lessen the more you use the keyboard, but comes back if you leave it for a while. It is super inconsistent and annoying and absolutely ridiculous for keyboards of that price.

Also their support is non-existent. The firmware latency settings can help a bit but if you make it slow enough to not do double-presses, then the keyboard feels unresponsive and you'll get more missed presses. Total bullshit.

I'd never EVER buy another product from them. They should be out of business in my opinion.

I have an Ergodox now and very happy.

Wow, that sounds awfully annoying. Thanks for the link.

I dont get why these companies go unresponsive when selling a high end product. They must be happy in their little niche market position, without much competition.

Why is this so common on these ergonomic mechanical keyboards?

I had a similar problem with my Kinesis Advantage. After less than 3 months, it would randomly type out gibberish.

I reset it multiple times and even tried different computers and OSes and it was the same. Would have needed to spend 100+ to get the board replaced. So now it's a $300 paperweight.

There was another brand that had similar reviews on Amazon of phantom keystrokes.

This makes me extremely wary.

Counter-anecdote: I own 2 Kinesis Advantage and they're both working perfectly after 11yr and 5yrs respectively.

That's what frustrates me, because I read a lot of good reviews for them. But now I'm just too scared to test my luck again.

I have a keyboardio, which has a very radical split design with a function key that you hit with the part of the palm close to the base of the thumb (either hand). I think it's amazing, but there's definitely a learning curve. Not one to worry about for people that use a keyboard many hours a day. You just want to give yourself a ramp-up time, starting with a bit of usage, and building up to full-time use.

looks great, but i doubt ill ever give up my Kinesis Advantage unless something truly mind blowing comes along

No RSI ever since switching to Kinesis Freestyle

I have an earlier TECK from them, and it was OK, but the middle row used weird custom keys so key swapping was not possible in the middle stack. This fixes that and goes with a slightly more toward ergodox layout.

The interesting thing is the switches. Optical switches should never fail, unless dust intrudes. It's not a well-tested technology but time will tell on the design.

I got one of the Microsoft Sculpt setups last year https://www.microsoft.com/accessories/en-us/products/keyboar... and have been more than happy with it.

Looks tempting but I just got my ultimate hacking keyboard. Need to give that some time to get into the muscle memory.

I ordered a month ago but I have not received it yet. How did it take to receive yours?

Link for curious about this keyboard: https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/

Was in on their crowdfunding site crowdsupply for more than a year. I think they’re close to it not done with those and into regular production now.

This makes the mistake that all split keyboards make of not duplicating the keys near the split line. Not everybody touch-types in the perfectly ordained "you will use this finger for this key" way and it is pretty annoying when your right hand goes for a "b" and it isn't there.

> 100% Anti‑Ghosting technology with Full N‑Key Rollover

What is ghosting in this context and what is Full N_Key Rollover?

Guaranteed not to be haunted.

Find some program that records key events, and hold down q, w, and a. It's somewhat likely that d will trigger as well (or that only two keys will trigger). That's ghosting (or jamming) due to only 2-key rollover.

It happens because there's not an individual electrical connection for each key. Instead, you have one wire for each row and column, and keys connect between them.

Basically, in a keyboard several keyswitches share the same wires. Thus when pressing keys on the same wire it can happen that the controller recognize the wrong key or multiple keys. This can be solved and depending on how many keys you can press at the same time it's called 2-key,3-key, etc. or n-key when there is no limit.

Should be noted that USB is limited by design to 6-key, only PS2 allows AFAIK true n-key.

You can look up matrix-wiring and diodes in keyboards if you want a more realistic explenation regarding the problems in keyboard-design

It refers to the way the circuit board is designed. Older keyboards were generally designed with the intention that only one, maybe two, keys would be held down at once.

But, modern applications (especially games), often require or support many keys to be pressed at once. This has required keyboard circuits to be designed to handle that. Ghosting is what happens when it's not designed to handle that (the computer registers key presses that weren't actually pressed) and N_Key Rollover is what you get when you eliminate ghosting and allow N number of keys to be pressed at once.

Looks like the Microsoft Natural Keyboard.[1] Minus the cursor and number pads. I still have one on my Windows 7 machine.

[1] https://www.microsoft.com/accessories/en-us/products/keyboar...

I'm still a huge fan of the MS4000 paired with an evoluent mouse. Between my wife and I, we have 3 (which is nice because we can use each other's setups).

I used to use and swear by that keyboard, and I can attest that there is a very large quality difference between the Microsoft keyboard and all the other options discussed in this thread. (The Microsoft keyboard is far inferior).

Removing the number pad makes a big difference to ergonomics since your mouse is in the right place rather than way off to the side.

Also the switches on the Microsoft keyboard were dome-switches last time I bought one, which means the keys require a very high force, and feel pretty gummy to actuate. This might not be a problem for everybody, but if you have (or are concerned about developing) RSI/carpal tunnel then reducing the force per keystroke is critical.

The OP, plus all the other ergo keyboards mentioned (ErgoDox, Kinesis, etc.) all have mechanical switches which are much nicer/healthier to type on.

Note an important diffetence, that Microsoft keyboard has staggered keys.

Who else gets wicked sore wrists typing on these "ergonomic" keyboards? Perhaps it's because I've typed on regular boards for over 30 years, but, these ergonomic layouts actually hurt me. No normal keyboards bother me at all.

can anyone say what this optical switch is about?

Gimmickry, nothing more. Switches are a commodity so making something new and special sounding gives a price boost and some popularity for a while. Activation by breaking a light beam vs. activation by completing a circuit, the difference is not going to be noticeable to a human.

Two plus sides: No caps lock, no Windows logo.

Umm, okay. IMHO, the most ergonomic keyboard ever was the (defunct) DataHand Professional II. It was so damn expensive that they drove themselves out of business by suboptimal profit maximization. If they cut production costs and cut wholesale prices, they could've made a killing and survived. It seemed like an inventor-led, garage-based company lacking a CFO, design-for-manufacturing engineering and investors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand

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