Comment by random878 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by random878 | Hacker News Reader

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I would respectfully disagree.

It is not acceptable to roughly the amount of people (and I include myself) who make a deliberate and self conscious decision to oppose it.

This is a small, small group. I have a phone with Replicant OS, which puts me within a niche group of an already niche group (those willing to install alternative OS and strip Google on their phone). In a wider computing sense - what percentage of HN use GNU/Linux? Of them, who runs as fully Free OS? What percentage of them are rocking a 12y.o. librebooted thinkpad?

The general public are apathetic at best. Contrary to popular opinion, people are not ignorant to the behaviour of tech giants - they just don't care enough to stop. Clearly, it is still an acceptable answer to consumers.

It's like claiming that people don't go vegetarian or vegan because they aren't aware of the suffering. Of course they are aware. It's just easier to keep eating hamburgers and live with the cognitive dissonance.

It's the same with these apps.

> Contrary to popular opinion, people are not ignorant to the behaviour of tech giants - they just don't care enough to stop.

Contrary to your* opinion, people do care enough to stop but they don't know how. Tech giants have insinuated themselves into literally every aspect of their lives by abusing the lack of knowledge of the users. Now, they don't see a way out without drastic change.

How can you get a job if you don't have a phone? How can you get a job when literally every affordable phone tracks you?

Even my apartment complex online portal tracks me. What the flying fuck?

The only way to actively stop is to not have any computing device whatsoever. Good luck living in a modern world like that: even then there's still facial tracking and vehicle tracking.

People that say that consumers don't care enough to stop is living in their own bubble insulated from real people.

>people do care enough to stop but they don't know how

I'd guess the vast majority of HN users will be primarily users of Windows/Mac OS and proprietary software. Many HN users will use GMail, Google Maps, Google Play Services... an so on.

Are we going to pretend that your average HN user doesn't understand the pros/cons of their software choices? Personally, I'd prefer to credit them with the intelligence to have made a balance and reasoned decision (albeit one I fundamentally disagree with).

This trickles down to less tech savvy users too. Many of my colleagues in Medicine are more than aware of such issues due to rules and regulation on data storage and the like. They know, for example, why patient data should never be on Google Drive or GMail. They still continue to use those services for personal use, despite being aware, because they simply aren't sufficiently motivated to change their habits. GMail is familiar, and hence easy, so why switch to ProtonMail (for example)?

>How can you get a job if you don't have a phone? How can you get a job when literally every affordable phone tracks you?

I have a very good career and have used Replicant OS and Lineage OS. I now use a dumbphone because I dislike smartphones for other reasons. There are many, many successful people who can function perfectly well without the latest iPhone.

>People that say that consumers don't care enough to stop is living in their own bubble insulated from real people.

Please don't resort to ad hominem attacks on Hacker News. It is uncalled for, and there are more appropriate ways to put your point across.

> Are we going to pretend that your average HN user doesn't understand the pros/cons of their software choices?

I am not pretending that the average HN doesn't understand the pros/cons of their software choices. I own my own domain and with it I provide my own email, calendar, and the like. It's nowhere near as simple as it could or should be. It increases the barrier to entry in both cognition and technology required while hiding the actual cost of the decision to offload that data to a third party.

> They still continue to use those services, despite being aware, because they simply aren't sufficiently motivated to change their habits.

Again: bubble. Is it that they're insufficiently motivated to change their habits? Or is it that they've been trained (whether personally, or educationally, or through another employer) for something easier and haven't been given a solution just as easy?

> GMail is familiar, and hence easy, so why switch to ProtonMail (for example)?

For me, personally: both of them are off-site and not owned by me. For many others: they don't know of ProtonMail. For many of them: they can't afford ProtonMail.

> There are many, many successful people who can function perfectly well without the latest iPhone.

I wasn't talking just about phones. Computers, even your employer's computer, can track you; my employer uses GSuite.

> Please don't resort to ad hominem attacks on Hacker News.

I don't believe this was an ad hominem attack; I believe it was an observation.

> I now use a dumbphone because I dislike smartphones for other reasons. There are many, many successful people who can function perfectly well without the latest iPhone.

I'm curious - how do you handle navigation (both in car and on foot) with a smartphone?

Without a smartphone?

In the car I have a Garmin satnav unit which I can use. They are great quality and I paid about £20 or 30 for it used. I strongly dislike this modern trend for using phones in cars. They are too distracting (I hate this modern trend of huge tablet interfaces in cars for the same reason).

On foot... I honestly don't need maps that much. I struggle to recall ever needing to have live directions while walking. I have a good in-built navigation brain through - probably from growing up doing lots of hiking, orienteering, and so on. I also think that reliance on blindly following a screen stunts the development of such skills. I find I have a very good mental map of my city compared to younger friends.

I spent my teens and 20s without technology like this. I find it quite depressing when this question gets raised.

In the EU, there is this legal concept of "informed consent" that was implemented in the GDPR.

It hasn't been tested much in court yet, but the theory is that users should actually understand what the "deal" between them and the company is when they "agree" to those terms of service.

It seems pretty reasonable to me, otherwise stuff like slavery could also be brought back hidden in companies' ToS.

> It's the same with these apps.

Not really. I agree that people accept it to some degree (I'd say out of helplessness), but that doesn't mean regular people expect a random free weather app is going to pawn off all all their contacts list to random scoundrels.

Holy cow, you are using a phone without GPS? https://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/Replica...

Everyone has their own use case. But, yeah, I am pretty sure I'd just go back to a feature phone if I couldn't have GPS.

I previously used a Galaxy S3 with Replicant OS. I also have a Sony phone with Lineage OS (with no Google). I now use a dumbphone as I don't particularly like smartphones. This decision is less driven by security and more a desire to ringfence time away from tech.

Personally, I was never bothered by the lack of GPS. I'm fine with offline maps. I have a satnav in the car which is the only time I really need minute-by-minute navigation.

I found the lack of WiFi to be a bigger issue. Mostly as I like podcasts. There is/was an option to use a WiFi adapter which works well if you plan in advance (i.e. use it when downloading a bunch of apps when setting up, or downloading a bunch of podcasts in one go).

Replicant OS is a really neat project, and they deserve some praise.

> The general public are apathetic at best.

They are not and impact and buzz around articles like this show it. General public does not know enough about technology to understand the ramifications of what they do. For some it might be shocking to know it is this easy to reuse location data for other purposes, or that by mixing different data points, you can de-anonymize pretty much anyone. These are concepts that are clear when you work with or like technology, but are not natural and need to be explained and learned.

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