Comment by nimbius | Hacker News Reader

Comment by nimbius | Hacker News Reader

disclosure: I am a former inmate at a regional detention center in the midwest. I work as an engine mechanic now.

Prison quality varies dramatically around the country. Some prisons are only interested in turning a profit or keeping the lights running, so youll be scrubbing dishes and floors for "shit tickets" and soap. These places are miserable. the people who work at these places are equally miserable. they barely earn more than you. These places serve no purpose but to make shareholders rich. they only make money so long as you are there.

Good, state run prisons, have every incentive in the world to offer competent education in farming, machining, or trade (part of what I learned.) A good prison can help heal your soul, and learn about yourself.

The real challenge isnt getting ex-convicts to work, its getting employers to hire them. Since in the US youre legally required to disclose your former convictions and felonies, most ex-convicts are barred from ever rejoining the workforce (or society for that matter.) Its biblical retribution.

convicts arent evil demons. Most of the circumstances that landed them in prison would really surprise you. Entrepreneurship might just be the only way to break out of the sorry cycle of unemployment, and I for one really hope Atlanta turns this into something sustained.

For-profit prisons are one of the worst ideas ever, along with for-profit hospitals and for-profit universities.

With each of these institutions it's not so much a problem of being run for profit but rather one of misaligned incentives.

Commercially run prisons where the operators get paid based on a lack of recidivism in former inmates rather than the time those inmates spend at the facility could help with alleviating some of the problems with the current prison system in the US.

Given the current state of those institutions, obviously those metrics are too difficult to define and measure and/or are too easy and profitable to corrupt.

Measuring the value of something in terms of time spent for its creation or delivery rather than its actual value because defining these value metrics is too difficult is a problem with many economic transactions.

However, with these institutions in particular I'd say the metrics a pretty well-defined:

- both prisons and healthcare: Lack of recidivism, time until you're a productive member of society again

- prisons and universities: Economic welfare of former 'inmates'. Some universities for example operate on a business model where they get paid a share of the graduate's income for a few years after graduation.

Sure, like many metrics these probably could be gamed but they're way better than current metrics, including those state-run institutions of these kinds operate with (if they have any metrics at all, that is).

The problem is also that you must make the game advantageous to all party involved So if you allow a prison to run for profit you must devise incentives that allows the prison a certain "guaranteed" profit.

What is hard is not just finding good metrics (that cannot be gamed), it is finding good metrict (that cannot be gamed) that can also provide profits to good players.

There's no such thing as guaranteed profit in a free market system, yet free markets seem to provide ample incentive for players to participate.

Obviously, there's no guarantee that a former inmate won't commit another crime even if the rehabilitative measures he experienced while doing time were exemplary. However, there's also no guarantee that in the university example a graduate will find a well-paid job. Still, there are universities that have successfully implemented this business model.

There's a whole industry that's predicated on this kind of uncertainties: The insurance industry. While there's no guaranteed outcome risks and probabilities can be calculated and factored into the price of a service.

The question perhaps is: What value do we as a society allocate to a former convict likely not committing crimes in the future anymore but contributing to society instead?

Considering the alternative, i.e. a former convict not only being a liability to society but also being highly likely to commit crimes in the future, I'd that service should come with quite a high price tag.

Given the (apparent) ethical black hole that is the current for-profit prison system, I’d be very worried what they might do to (instead of for) inmates to discourage recidivism.

This isn't biblical retribution. In the Bible, there are consequences for crime, for sure… but there are also the concepts of restitution and restoration.

You weren't punished forever. Forgiveness existed.

You weren't in debt forever. There was an end in sight.

Look up "Jubilee".

IF ONLY we had that today.

I think the only thing coming close to this concept has to do with your credit history, and things falling off after 7 years.

> The possible redemption from the predicament of irreversibility - of being unable to undo what one has done - is the faculty of forgiving. The remedy for unpredictability, for the chaotic uncertainty of the future, is contained in the faculty to make and keep promises. Both faculties depend upon plurality, on the presence and acting of others, for no man can forgive himself and no one can be bound by a promise made only to himself.

-- Hannah Arendt

Jubilee is enacted in the current Bankruptcy code.

There's a reason that it's called penitentiary. It's because you're supposed to repent and show penance. It's meant to rehabilitate and return people to society after they have not only intellectually understood and apologized for their actions, but actually successfully modified their behavior to become a successful member of society.

Now while that is the intent, it does not mean it has not been corrupted. My main point is your idea of learning a skill is 100% what the Bible encourages. Not the punishment. Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone and all that.

Perhaps it's time to return these institutions to their proper purpose by actually discussing what we think should be a crime, and what we think the consequences should be from the ground up.

Good luck with that though when we can't even decide if the other side is evil or not.

There is a small, growing movement called the "Ban the box" movement. It's intended to change laws around employment hiring, to stop people from asking whether you have a criminal background (with some exceptions for crimes like rape or murder, usually);

specifically recognizing the difficulty returning citizens have in getting back on their feet. When the labor pool for returning citizens is so small, so constrained, and the jobs aren't that great, it's just another factor working against their reintegrating into society.

I for one think the ban the box movement is an absolutely fantastic idea, and hope it gains steam.

Check out the website, 70millionjobs.com for employment as a convicted felon.

Also, you are not legally required to disclose your former convictions, unless you are asked. It is smart to do so, though.

hopefully the prison reform bill helps

Although an interesting though I've had is that in the future people might get sent to jail on purpose for a non-violent offense because they'll essentially educate you while providing free room and board. There was a 60 minutes episode on an inmate who essentially was able to educate himself enough about the law to help appeal other convicts sentences and he became a lawyer when he got out.

I know if I was homeless I would consider it

That's why free education is important. It's crazy that people would go to prison on purpose to get it.

I joke about this. 3 years ago I was giving conference talks, now I am seemingly chronically unemployed and homeless in Silicon Valley, working odd jobs (eg. Christmas tree lot, trench digging). Jail sounds nice.

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