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Comment by robbie78 | Hacker News Reader

No word on social media and Brexit. People are still living in a dream state about what the real threat is .

China and Russia sure can cause hurt here and there but in a hyperconnected economic order sooner or later they suffer too.

Look at the yellow jacket movement in France. Nobody has any idea how to control that. That's the danger. To wake up one morning and find your house or business burnt done cause some group or the other has been triggered on social media.

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This is the same mistake the Democrats in the US are continuing to make. They see Trump as an aberration, "Russia", "Cambridge Analytica" etc. But what they are not seeing is that something drove people to vote for Trump; something drove people to vote for BrExit, Catalonian independence. The same something that is making these people protest in France.

That's the problem to be solved.

Neither the progressive populist faction nor the neoliberal moderate faction of the Democratic Party is making the mistake you charge; he Progressive populist faction was aimed at the problem before the Trump symptom had even fully manifested (not because it was fueling nationalism, but because they were concerned with the same underlying problems independently); the (decreasingly, but still) dominant neoliberal faction was certainly in denial about it until too late to prevent Trump, but when Hillary Clinton, as part of a discussion series on the rise of right-wing nationalist populism in Europe and the Americas says that Europe needs to curb immigration to cut off the fuel for nationalist populism, she's clearly focussed on the problem, whatever you think of her proposed solution.

Both factions completely ignored white Midwest people in 2016, though. Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin.

And the progressive wing's go-to is "they're racist". Those 4 states voted for Obama twice, how racist can they be?

> Both factions completely ignored white Midwest people in 2016, though.

No, they didn’t both do that; the progressive populist faction, particularly, did not (the fact that the progressive faction was outperforming among constituencies like rural whites, both nationally and specifically in the Midwest, that were traditionally seen as more conservative, whereas the neoliberal faction’s strength was focussed in what were conventionally seen as progressive urban/coastal strongholds and minority constituencies was one of the most heavily reported surprises of the primary, and was a direct result of that.)

The neoliberal faction won the primary and controlled general election strategy, controlling both the Presidential campaign and the DNC, sure, but it wasn't both factions ignoring the constituency you point to.

Those white people certainly didn't think the progressive wing was listening to them.

Union guys went for Trump in the Midwest. I recognize that you care about about them, but they didn't buy it from the overall party, and definitely not from the progressive wing.

What's the default "progressive wing" opinion on white men? If we're judging by the loudest opinions? What do their wives think about that, if the man happens to be the breadwinner?

> Union guys went for Trump in the Midwest.

Again, the progressive populist faction wasn't involved in the Presidential general election.

So, yeah, all you are doing is pointing out that the neoliberal faction was ignoring the problem, which I said at the outset.

> I recognize that you care about about them, but they didn't buy it from the overall party, and definitely not from the progressive wing.

Again, the progressive populist faction’s support from the demographic in question was one of the big stories of the primary (and one of the reasons Trump specifically targeted Sanders supporters—overtly and by name—in the general.)

> What's the default "progressive wing" opinion on white men?

The progressive populist faction is the segment of the party least interested in (other maybe than economic class-based) identity politics.

Yes, the midwest people never think the progressive wing is listening no matter what and no matter how much listening and actual solution creation happens. That's really more on them than anyone else. The party that had plans to move people from coal shoveling to solar installers? Democrats. The part that didn't actually care about the people in the midwest and just lied to them that their jobs would be fine or would come back? Republicans. Their jobs are going the way of the dodo right now and have been over the past 2 years.

What's the progressive wing opinion on white men? There isn't one... like at all. It's not a thing that exists currently as a goal of theirs to focus on. Are you ascribing a white men opinion to Democrats from somewhere?

“It’s the economy stupid” (bill clinton) and a bunch of racists.

I find it interesting that if you look at the top articles on HN mentioning China in a negative light, more often than in other articles, you'll get comments talking about:

- How another country (the US usually) is even worse in many ways.

- A change of topic from the article being mentioned.

This is not an an ad-hom against the OP, for all I know he's a normal guy sitting right in my state. But just a pattern if you search other HN articles on China.

Also, I don't get your middle sentence

> Eventually China and Russia will hurt too.

If China steals UK IP, how will China "eventually hurt", other than using the most roundabout logic?

China is notably not implicated in messing with the democracies on things like brexit or Trump. Which isn't to say they're saints -- they're just playing a longer game.

As far as people who dare to defend China against being THE WORST... I mean, 1.4 billion people, some of them move to America and speak English. It doesn't have to be a conspiracy.

EDIT: More downvotes, please. Express your patriotism.

Right, but if there was a post about how the US is still polluting with a lot of coal, how often is the top post "But China..." Similarly, India has even more US immigrants, but look at the top critical articles on India.

There's plenty of new evidence showing that China does engage in so-call "Sharp power"

https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/12/21/one-of-americas-biggest...

I think the proper policy is that HN users should upvote the sidetrack if they find that to be most interesting, and upvote the normal topic if they believe otherwise.

I'm sure admins can take a look into both Russian, Chinese, or even corporate influencers, and find ways to scale down their impact, which the admins should. If they're real opinions of a 1:1 person, then that's fair.

On carbon, trajectory counts. China's government is investing in clean energy and taking it seriously. America? ... Maybe this topic is a bad example for what you're trying to say.

My beef is seeing liberals succumb to red scare and hypernationalism regarding China. They have problems, but they've also done a phenomenal job for their own people these last 40 years.

Where is this partisanship coming from? There's no mention of being liberal or conservative upstream from this comment but this comment (and others of yours) are attempting to call out one party in the US and throwing fault their way. It's odd since it isn't a thing in the original article probably because it's not about the US at all.

The people from Google who've been demonizing the Chinese largely self identify as "liberal". Yes, it's awfully ironic.

I wouldn't call it partisan as they're nowhere close to mainstream Democrats.

What makes you think HN should be site with news piece of each country properly distributed?

China is not even a country. PRC is.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.

China is the unofficial name for the PRC and is widely known to be a country. I mean... everyone agrees China is a country and you're just talking about using a more official name for it vs not doing that. You're the only person I've ever seen saying 'China is not even a country.'

And if you look at their submissions and comments, you’ll see a heavy China focus.

because having an imaginary enemy always helps thinking?

I am questioning if any government official (including this MI6 boss) have any idea of how computer or internet works at all.

Yeah how dare people point out that some articles about China might have been biased! Isn't it interesting that every time someone presents countering viewpoints (not even necessarily defending the Chinese gov), they are almost immediately met with accusations of astroturfing/shilling?

On the other hand, a 2hrs old account that is likely created right before this comment is made is totes not suspicious at all. Nope, not suspicious, at all.

This breaks the HN guideline against insinuating astroturfing, albeit subtly. Please don't do that—it only poisons the threads further.

People are legitimately divided about this and other divisive issues. Don't forget that HN is a highly international community, as well.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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