Comment by jniedrauer | Hacker News Reader

Comment by jniedrauer | Hacker News Reader

As an adult, I've only really ever had an active social life for one short period where I was barely surviving as a retail wage slave. My coworkers were all in the same situation, but we found solace in our shared misery, and I made a lot of really good friends.

As a programmer, I sometimes make friends with my coworkers, but it's a very sanitized sort of interaction. Genuine exchanges of ideas is a dangerous proposition when it means risking our livelihood.

The only place where I can freely exchange conversation with strangers is, ironically, on wild backcountry trails. Out there, information is very important. How much snow is there on the ridgeline? Where is the next water source? Any good campsites? And so on.

I've come to believe over the years that friendship can essentially be distilled down to proximity + a common interest + time. Unfortunately, we spend most of our time working, and these three things are very difficult to find outside of the workplace.

I commute between New York and the Bay Area. It is so hard to strike up a meaningful conversation with a stranger out west.

And it’s not just New York. In most big cities, I can reliably find an acquaintance after a few hours at a restaurant, bar or museum. But the Bay Area is so reticent. The closest comparison to it I can think of is the Middle East.

It's interesting that you bring up the Middle East. Is that from experiences as a foreigner or a native?

I think it's a typo and meant "Mid West" instead. Could be wrong.

Meant the Middle East. Midwesterners are terrifically warm and welcoming, if one takes the first step.

Middle Easterners are even more so, but probably not to foreigners as much. (although in parts of Turkey and Iran even the people living in villages will welcome you into their homes)

Ever noticed why true homelessness is so low in middle eastern countries? The "homeless" there often are people with homes who just don't go there at night.

Foreigner. If you sit in a social setting in Dubai or Riyadh or Jordan, you’ll be left alone. All day. Sort of like the Bay Area. Anywhere else, somebody will say hi.

Middle east? Are you out of your mind? Have you been in middle east?

I am from middle east and came to Vancouver 5 months ago and I literally want to go back from this hell hole and although grad school does not pay that much, but because I work a lot I get paid alot by my supervisor too, so I am in good financial situation here. (And I’ve been in some middle east and European countries and have great friends from all of those countries. So it is not like I dont know how to talk to people.)

People are not approachable. Long story short, you can search about Seattle freeze. People literally come to bars and night clubs in groups, and leave with their groups. All of my international friends are under extreme extreme pressure from loneliness. Although they don’t have financial problems, but some of them leaving. I am considering to applying to east coast and unfinishing my degree here.

In Middle East you are definitely not alone. You definitely do not make as much as developed nation. But you are not definitely alone. People are generally way more nicer, easy going. Literally yasterday I saw someguy passed out in Skytrain and there was 40,50 people there. You know what they did? literally nothing. At the end I was the one calling 911. (Not that I am a great person or something, i just call, but it was unbelievable how in western society people live their life.)

> In Middle East you are definitely not alone

I’ve only ever been a foreigner in the Middle East. I trust that, like the Bay Area, insiders have their circles. The commonality is the tendency towards privacy clique sociology.

So you can say as foreigner in middle east. But you cannot say as in middle east.

From my understanding it is way way less cliquey than west coast, maybe you have visited the wrong places! (Haven’t been in east coast myself.)

I was just talking today about how "The Seattle Freeze" would be a fantastic name for an NHL team here. Not that I actually believe in the Seattle Freeze, I just think it would be funny.

This is North American culture in a nutshell and I can't say it's much different in Ontario. I can relate to what you say but unless someone is well travelled or has lived in a different culture for a significant period of time it's hard for them to have perspective or realize why people are so ... standoffish.

It's an individualist culture.

All I can say is I hear ya, but you are preaching to the choir. You likely won't get a lot of acknowledgements here.

Come to Scandinavia if you really want to see an individualistic culture. Striking up a single conversation with a stranger is frowned upon. People going to North America always come back saying everyone was so talkative.

Swedish person living in the netherlands for 12 years and i can only agree. Sweden is a emtionally cold country, and even though we have space that looks like it could invite to social behaviour, make no mistake about it, people will assume that you are after something/trying to mug them if you attempt on only being a tad social. I live in Amsterdam now which is a lot more open to chit-chat, but the Dutch live very much for them selves, are so tired of tourists that you really have to speak fluent Dutch to not be cosidered someone they will never see again.

I 100% agree with you. I've lived in the Bay Area 31 years, and I usually drum up this scenario:

Sitting alone, at a nice bar, anywhere in the Bay Area - I could sit there all day, and no one would say a word to me.

Any other city? Even New York? Boston? Austin? Atlanta? Denver? Paris? Berlin? Seattle? No problem. Someone will chat, I'll meet a group, whatever.

Also, I'm extremely social. It's "not me."

Disclaimer: Just an unscientific observation.

What about beer gardens with communal seating?

I'm afflicted with a resting bitch face, but if I'm at Zeitgeist in SF, strangers will usually strike up conversation with my party.

In SF, I feel people have moved to the city with their own clique that they try to stay within - people will show up to meet their group as part of their evening plans, not to meet new people. They're open to it, but never proactive.

However, the odds improve if you avoid "nice" bars - destination bars are a thing, people show up with their group for a few drinks never intending to visit again. They never socialize so locals go elsewhere.

My experience (in SF/Oakland for 30+ years) is the same. Trouble is, I've grown so accustomed to it that I probably project the same Bay Area snotty hostility when I visit other places.

This is really surprising to me. I live in LA and it's the same as your description of the Bay. And it's hard to me to imagine it any other way. What would these people have to say to me? What could I have to say to them?

Which is a way of suggesting that it does both ways. I don't know how people develop the skills necessary to approach someone they don't know.

I could sit there all day, and no one would say a word to me

They are all too afraid of “offending” you or committing a “microaggression”. A room full of people all desperate to connect but no one will make the first move in case it ends up on Twitter.

I’m in Denver and the same thing happens to me in most bars. The rise of the smart phone ruined bars.

Opposite experience for me oddly. People (like, outside of SoMa) are so much more relaxed and not rushed. Open to a conversation and not really in a hurry to be anywhere.

I found it tough to find spots like that anywhere in NYC.

I think we’re conditioned to it in San Francisco. The only people who come up to talk to you here are homeless people asking for change, scammers, religious zealots (Scientologists), people canvassing for elections, and people asking you to donate to XYZ cause. After a certain point you just put up your guard to strangers in public spaces.

Middle East? Certainly not Lebanon. I spent a few months there as a foreigner and making friends was crazily easy, whether it was with locals or other foreigners.

Whenever I was sitting in a bar or cafe, or on a bus, there was always a better than 50% chance someone would strike up a conversation with me - and then follow up with a genuine invitation to meet up again.

This is a problem with how employment works, more than anything.

I've always "hung out" with colleagues after work hours. Because we're all in the same boat, and have more in common with each-other than anyone else, because we spend 40+ hours a week in the same room.

It's a failure of HR and management, imo, when that doesn't happen. And it can be increasingly hard to fix.

I stopped doing employment because I don't have much interest in most people. At work I had to hang around some random guys for 40h a week and I just couldn't stand it.

Now I'm a freelancer and work remote, so I can minimize the non-work related communication with co-workers.

I have a few friends and go to parties two times a month and host my own meetup one time a month.

Glad you're able to work like that. A lot of people aren't though. For them, there needs to be a different solution.

What sort of parties happen that frequently?

80's, batcave, darkwave, gothic, ebm...

> 40+ hours a week in the same room

The more it goes the more I have resistance to that very concept. Then I see people expecting to go to lunch together, and spent more time after work hours.

Am I getting broken or something ? It seems to me that’s an ungodly amount of our life time expected to spend with “just” coworkers. They are nice people, but it’s not like I am marrying them.

I guess I wouldn’t be able to live in middle size submarine.

I don't want to spend a single minute more with my coworkers than I already do. I'm glad HR is not interfering with that.

expats often ask on our city-subreddit how to make friends. our go-to answer is usually: (sports/activity) clubs (not bars). i can observe this in our weightlifting club. your job, your home country, your social background, your interests don't matter much; we at least have the common interest in weightlifting as a conversation starter, and other activities (usually dinner after training) are common. from there on you can decide to further socializing by, e.g. helping people from that community with the various tasks (moving, computer troubles, the usual stuff).

it's still possible for people to keep to themselves, but if you want to make friends, that's an easy way.

> I've come to believe over the years that friendship can essentially be distilled down to proximity + a common interest + time. Unfortunately, we spend most of our time working, and these three things are very difficult to find outside of the workplace.

Think about my childhood, that idea rings true - kids connect relatively quickly because they have all this time together and for exploring interests, or at minimum "shared misery". I'd say college was the best time to meet people... we had so much free time, mixing with new people very quarter, and even dorming with "strangers".

Although, I also believe we are way to risk averse as adults. Personally, I share this attitude:

> Genuine exchanges of ideas is a dangerous proposition when it means risking our livelihood.

but I'm deeply questioning it these days. (edit: assuming "genuine exchange of ideas" does not violate law/HR - a more complicated issue)

Why should we suppress ourselves in the name of livelihood?

Tech is a high-demand skill-based field with labor shortages projected to last upward a decade despite immigration and new graduates. We get paid well enough to have financial security (savings). Urban tech is one of the most diverse field out there. What's the worst that could happen? Leaving a poor culture fit to find a company/team we connect with? That sounds like a positive, well worth the switching cost.

So why the conservatism? If this will be a life-long career, is the total time/emotional/mental/physical cost of work worth the benefits? If not... why conform?

Networking is the most common response, but who maintains connections with people they dislike? Money is the next most common response, but towards what ends? How much additional wealth does conformity buy, and why is deferring happiness worth it? Time is expensive - every day is one out of our limited and unknown lifespan.

edit - To answer myself:

Conformity was the fastest post-graduation path to funding my own business. Now that I can safely afford the gamble, the ideas still work but my priorities have changed - I recognize this corporate lifestyle of working 40h/week in an office thinking for profit is personally unsustainable regardless of who's boss. So, I stopped conforming and next spring I'm off for some tru-hiking/traveling then pivoting to a new field through grad school (the brewing recession might be a happy coincidence).

I'm questioning myself, but no more than when I started college/working. I am confident that staying on the old path is the only wrong choice (sunk cost fallacy).

Switching jobs is an enormous cost and risk to almost anybody. Sure, there are a lot of tech jobs, but you will probably spend dozens or hundreds hours changing to one that will pay you the same or more as you are making now. So you've got this sunk cost and there is no guarantee that your controversial opinion will be acceptable at your next job, unless you discuss it during your interview (which will probably mean it will take you longer to find a job, because that's just weird interview behavior)

In my opinion, if you want to share controversial opinions, do it somewhere with a low switching cost, or high trust. I am happy to talk about my politics or sexuality at my hacker space, tree planting group, with regulars at the bar, or with my immediate family (who I love and trust even though we disagree on a lot). I am perfectly happy not finding common interests at work or the PTA, especially when I know my opinions are outside of the first standard deviation.

> I am perfectly happy not finding common interests at work or the PTA

I think that's a key distinction - I am not happy in that situation. If you are comfortable, no problem and more power to you!

> Switching jobs is an enormous cost and risk to almost anybody. Sure, there are a lot of tech jobs, but you will probably spend dozens or hundreds hours changing to one that will pay you the same or more as you are making now.

My point was to evaluate your holistic ROI in the employee-employer relationship... considering where you are, where you're headed, and where you want to be (perhaps even considering your eulogy). What are you putting in and getting out of the relationship?

If you are satisfied, keep on keeping on. If not, pivot - the sunk cost fallacy is real.

That doesn't mean flipping off your boss and moon-walking out the door. Just... recognize when you have a bad deal and want more, then start looking for ways to make it happen. A pay cut may be perfectly acceptable.

If you're in a planning role (engineering, product, or otherwise), the same skills apply to your life.

Have you considered that the desire to feel fully accepted by all might be detrimental your well-being?

Second this view.

I'm perfectly happy to not be friends with my coworkers, if only because I do not want their or mine personal controversial opinions to color the effectiveness of my work.

That was my question to you - you are regulating your behavior out of concern for how others see you.

I don't.

>flipping off your boss and moon-walking out the door

That's a great image, lol!

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