Violence Escalates as France Scrambles to Respond to ‘Yellow Vest’ Protesters | Hacker News Reader

Violence Escalates as France Scrambles to Respond to ‘Yellow Vest’ Protesters

nytimes.com

45 pointssahin50 comments

"fun" fact: average earner in France can buy ~2K liters of diesel with one months salary, average earner in Poland ~600 liters. Half both numbers for minimum wages. French started this protest over expensive diesel ...

No, the tax on diesel was the final straw on the camel's back. People are poor, struggle to make ends meet, and felt unheard by the politicians; that's why the 2 historic parties completely failed at the last election, people wanted to see actual change. With very little effect, of course. When Macron added yet another reform that penalized those poor slices of population, that was the good moment for everyone to mobilize against a government they feel doesn't care about them.

Is it truly about diesel or is it like how the American revolution was about tea?

It is looking very much like the beginning of US tea party. A lot of retired people because their pensions diminished by 2-3%. Single parents who are really struggling because of housing prices. And then add to it all kind of extrems right, left etc. It just started about diesel.

The economy in France has been anemic and never really recovered since the last crash (high unemployment). Lots of hard working french people are struggling. They feel that they are not being listen to.

France has only 479 cars per 1,000 people [0]. Only 13% of Parisians commute by car. [1]

Drivers are a minority of the population, whose choices cause immense harm to everyone else. Their getting steamrolled by national policy seems completely reasonable. Their attempt to hold the rest of the country hostage does not.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicle...

[1] https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/01/the-automotiv...

Number of cars per person is not a reasonable metric. In a family of four with a single working parent the driver is the minority but brings home 100% of the income. People in Paris can commute without cars because they have alternatives, unlike many people living in other parts of the country. (in other words, those who have to drive a car are those who cannot afford to live in Paris)

In France employers pay 50% social security taxes, then employees 20% on what they receive... plus income taxes and 20% sales tax (VAT).

In Poland the social security taxes are 22%, then 14% for the employee, plus income tax and 23% sales tax.

This is why the French are protesting. Very little money ends up in the hands of the worker.

Social security taxes are pernicious and should be replaced completely with income taxes. It should be clear to employees how much tax they are paying, and it should be as simple as possible for employers to pay employees.

The French government has been raising taxes for years. People have been struggling to make ends meet.

Macron comes off as a privileged president that has no clue about what his citizens are going through.

Things are going to escalate further if nothing changes.

France has high taxes, but at the same time provides more services than other countries: free education including higher education, free healthcare, generous unemployment package, etc. Even more, this is done without closing the door to immigration.

Regarding the current movement which started with taxes on gas, the tax raise is insignificant vs. the actual oil price increase. Read this article (in French) for more information: https://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2018/11/09/peti...

Also, the people who go into the protests to break cars and shops have nothing to do with the original movement. Some clearly came to loot shops (if you are anarchist, you want to burn luxury clothing items, not take them), some are anarchists who came to fight police forces, etc.

No one gives a fuck about services if you can’t get some bread.

you don't know what you are talking about.

You need to pay the taxes, your expenses and then you may use what the state provides. If you raise taxes and fees by X% for a few years and wages stagnate, people might forget the free education, since they can't pay their rent.

I like the European tradition, it gets their attention, and messing with people's bread and butter is a cause to rise up

Taxes on gasoline make up 50% of the price.

To pretend that the increase in taxes is there to help pay for renewable energies is a joke.

It's not a secret that the government is broke and looking to raise money any way it can.

It's trying to pass this tax increase as something that needs to be done to save the planet.

But they dont tax the fuel for tankers or airplanes so where is the logic?

It's not the little guy with his diesel car that does most of the damage to the environment.

> But they dont tax the fuel for tankers or airplanes so where is the logic?

Can they ? The only thing that will happen is no plane or tanker will buy fuel in France if it is not a decision made on an international level, no ?

I think that planes refuel at each trip. They wouldn’t have the choice.

It is. 40% of french emissions are due to personal transportation (cars), 8% airplanes.

This is a very idealized version of reality. France also has high unemployment, especially amongst youth and immigrants, migrant camps popping up, civil unrest, many regions where the economy is going to shit and industries are disappearing, etc...

> Macron comes off as a privileged president that has no clue about what his citizens are going through.

Macron is a neoliberal, it was obvious things were going to end badly. Yeah raise the gas tax, cut pensions and let the free market solve everything. Doesn't work with public policy.

It was depressing seeing Mélenchon come in third in 2017.

I’m curious how France deals with the populist candidate who rises to power from Macron’s tone deaf policies.

What is depressing is seeing French people think the situation would be better with Mélenchon who has great admiration for Chavez and Maduro.

France has a huge debt. This guy's policy would worsen the situation very quickly.

France is the 2nd country in the world with the most public expenses after Finland (data.oecd.org/gga/general-government-spending.htm).

And Melenchon says that liberalism doesn't work, we should just follow the path of communist countries. But France never applied liberal policies and we have all seen the results of communist policies.

>struggling to make ends meet

French wages are on average ~8x higher compared to the post 2000 join date EU countries, prices are same across EU.

Tell that to the millions of retired people and people making minimum wage with less than 1200 euros per month to live with a rent of 600-700 euros.

Prices aren't the same across EU. There are already different across France. Life is more expensive in Paris than in any other French city for example.

Source? I don’t think you are correct. I’m French living in the US. Median net income is around 1,700 euro. Most people I know make around 1300-1900. And many retired are bellow 1k euro... People are pissed because they are struggling, and have nothing left at the end of the month. Politicians keep rising taxes, while cutting it for the rich.

It's very interesting though, following the hashtag the protestors use yields quite a lot of Turkish activity in their support.

ELI5: What is the consensus on the disadvantages and advantages of diesel? I've heard conflicting information on this:

Some say reducing the number of cows would be much more effective for slowing down global warming.

Some say diesel exhaust fumes are not so bad and are unlikely to affect our health very much.

Even if you dont care about global warming, diesel produces smog in cities. DPF and EGR delete is very popular among diesel owners, and rarely policed.

how popular do you really think it is in the average population...

Diesel exhaust is very harmful, moreso than gasoline car exhaust.

citation needed

I don't have time to address your ignorance so forgive the wikipedia source, but it's commonly well known to be much more harmful than catalyzed gasoline exhaust: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust#Concerns_regard...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/french-police-clash-with-yellow...

French police clash with protesters in Paris riot; 90 injured

False flag, perhaps?

It could be. But I wonder just who is organizing this in social media. Maybe they've left clues, inadvertently. If I knew French better, I'd look into it.

The protests are real. The violence is the false flag. Saboteurs planted into the crowds to try and discredit the movement.

It already happened in the previous protests at Place de la Republique.. I would not be surprised.

It's a tried and tested strategy that works for any kind of protest anywhere. People are angry and in large groups. It only takes a gentle push to create riots. The people in charge want the riots to happen so they can label their opponents as the lawless mob.

You just need to look at who came dressed for riots though. It certainly isn't the yellow jackets.

I know. And if the mob is stubborn and does not want to escalate.. you send some "collaborators" to break the windows or put the fires because everyone knows, the mobs are crazy. I suspect the riot police is down-voting me.. No common sense people would get upset by my post.

I will tell you how the short lived Russian democracy fell: it did not fell to "crazy mountain terrorists," but to people who kept on voting for food stamps, and free sausages (that is not a joke at all)

Now, when those people are genuinely fc*ked up, and have all the reasons to worry about having to eat grass in coming years, they have no food stamps left to vote for.

> Added to that is the reality that many who say they are supportive have not yet come out to demonstrate. While it is possible that this reservoir of supporters will not become activists, if they did the government would be hard put to cope.

> ...

> Multiple surveys of public opinion released in the past week suggest that 70 percent to 80 percent of French people sympathize with the Yellow Vests’ contention that President Emmanuel Macron and his government “talks about the end of the world while we are talking about the end of the month.”

> The slogan refers to Mr. Macron’s focus on reducing climate change by promoting fuel efficiency and raising gas taxes in contrast to French working people who struggle to make it to the end of their month on their earnings.

I'm reminded some of Trump rhetoric. Also the Occupy movement. It's a heady mix.

It’s the second Saturday in a row that there are degradation on the Champs Elysées.

Today someone even paint a slogan on the Arc de Triomphe.

I’m not sure those good sympathetic polls will last long.

Some of the yellow vests representatives demand to raise the level and start blocking gas stations.

It’s December. One of the month where shops make a good part of their yearly income.

I’m not sure a lot of people will continue to follow. We’ll see.

> It’s December. One of the month where shops make a good part of their yearly income.

True. But feeling poor during the holidays can be especially painful and frustrating, no?

A car can truly be a necessary lifeline in postwar American suburbs that were designed around it, but in France? In Paris? Wouldn’t you take the subway? Isn’t a car kind of a hassle/luxury there to begin with? I don’t understand the sympathy.

just read 260+ arrested, nearly 90 injured.

European union human rights should be example to their own cops in France. it is pretty shocking how SOME french cops (no generalition of course) are so violet!!!

At least now we have some idea of the fuel price needed to start a riot. $7/gal. That means there's plenty of headroom to raise the fuel tax in the USA!

Well before that price, you'd see a huge increase in diversion of home heating oil (untaxed) to fuel use.

Most of the violence is coming from left extremists or black blocks. At every protest in France (and we are specialist), you can see them attacking banks, insurance companies branches, luxury stores, burning expensive cars... I don't understand why the governments are not tougher on them. Maybe intelligence services are too busy spying on islamists which are an even more serious threat.

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