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Comment by around_here | Hacker News Reader

File under "pretty obvious if you think about it".

On motorcycles, the rule to live by is All The Gear, All The Time. On mopeds, it's apparently Helmet With Maybe A Jacket. On electric scooters, it's Lol. The truth is that it should always be ATGATT on all 3. Going down on any of them is going to be exactly the same as going down at the same speed on a motorcycle.

One of the things you learn during rider training is that "stuck throttle" is usually panic freezing your wrist in place. Same goes for brakes that aren't working. I'll grant you that the scoots probably aren't maintained super well either, so it might be more likely there than on your personal machine.

All these rentals are adding up to just one thing: A lot more untrained, inexperienced motorcycle riders on the roads (and sometimes the sidewalks). The results are pretty obvious if you think about it.

Edit: Typo that I noticed.

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What's maybe not so obvious is how much danger scooters expose pedestrians and cyclists to. Scooter riders are not just a danger to themselves. They have much less road awareness than motor cyclists and tend to zoom in and out of crowded cycle lanes and right through car lanes and zebra crossings as if there are no rules at all in and around Amsterdam. I've seen more than one pretty bad accident involving a scooter and pedestrians or cyclists and I've yet to see my first accident with a car and pedestrians or cyclists (in Amsterdam, elsewhere it's unfortunately not such a good record).

I had my earbuds in walking down a fairly wide sidewalk today at night when a scooter rider rode past me going full throttle within maybe eight inches of me. This is not the first incident like this either. It's only a matter of time before someone gets seriously hurt or killed on these.

What are these companies going to do to discourage bad riders and encourage responsible use?

Nothing? Unless use drops because of the news/awareness/users injuring themselves, capitalism demands that they offload the costs to the public, minimize their liability, and maximize their returns.

After about a year or two of using these scooters, the scooter riders will have about a year or two of practice.

I think it's obvious that the smaller and less dangerous something seems, that the more risk people will take and the more injuries will occur. The fact that people use them on the sidewalk is bad enough.

> Going down on any of them is going to be exactly the same as going down at the same speed on a motorcycle.

I'm all for better safety, but I think this is an overreaction. I'd compare falling off a scooter to be similar to falling off a bike–you're dealing with similar speeds and similar weight vehicles in both.

Yeah, I've gone down on a motorcycle at a low speed and I crushed my foot. On a bicycle it would have just been scrapes.

I stopped motorcycling after that.

I agree, but think of the change to Valley culture. Everyone wearing leathers or plate armor jackets. Full wrap face helmets and MBP's at all of the eateries. Eventually we could see roving gangs of electric biker faangs with their corporate emblems displayed widely across their backs. Soon territory disputes with comments like "Get outta here, crapple!"

> I'd compare falling off a scooter to be similar to falling off a bike

I agree, and I've fallen off a bike a number of times. I have a few scars to show for it, and I would probably not be here if I hadn't worn a helmet during one of those accidents.

You very quickly reach speeds on a bike, and a scooter, where going down is going to mean significant injury even with the proper gear. Without safety gear, you're looking at life-changing or life-ending injuries.

Eh - I've fallen off a bike twice at relatively low speeds, and both time I've broken a bone (first time a finger, second time a scaphoid fracture).

I think it's important not to under-react just because the speeds are lower than a motorcycle - all those bones in our limbs break just as well at 10mph. When on a bike or a scooter, scaphoid wrist protection and at least a jacket on at all times, for me.

What about the danger to pedestrians hit by the driver of a scooter?

The risk is lower on a scooter than on a motorcycle. We don't have to over-correct though, and treat scooters like they're _that much_ safer than a motorcycle.

The most dangerous thing we can do is let ourselves mentally relax when we're on one, as if we're not on a big sharp chunk of (relatively) fast metal and inertia.

A helmet wearing person slamming headfirst into the nape of somebody's neck at 15 or 50 miles per hour is probably going to kill them.

  The risk is lower on a scooter than on a motorcycle.

On the road, yes. But motorcycles don't routinely take the sidewalks.

The pedestrian won't hear the scooter coming.

The problem though, is that scooters have terrible dynamic stability in comparison to bicycles which thanks to conservation of angular momentum and large wheels, are very easy to control and remain upright on when traveling at speed. In contrast, even small things like hitting a small rock/bump the wrong way can destabilize someone on a scooter and lead to an accident.

Falling off a bike/scooter at similar speeds obviously ends with similar results, but I'd be confident to wager that the probability of an accident is a lot higher on a scooter due to the point above.

Bicycles powered by humans are "helmets only" mostly out of necessity. You're generating a lot of heat, and things can go really badly for you if you're working up a sweat in full motorcycle gear.

Well, talking about the weight of the vehicle is a red herring here. With the exception of getting hit/crushed by the vehicle, the human component of going down is all about speed, fleshy weight, and ride-height.

I'm also not expecting people to ATGATT while on the scooters, but without doing that, injuries are definitely going to rise with increased use.

HN opinion is obviously pro-cars. Every comment for these scooters are getting downvoted here. The truth is that large roads have been created for expensive machines and we have accepted that as the only way of transportation eventhough it is the deadliest. I’m sad that I can’t ride one of these scooters without a driver license, because I am not interested in driving a car but I am interested in riding a scooter for short distance trips.

There have been incidents of people cutting the brake lines on the bikeshare bikes that are scattered all around Seattle. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of these scooter accidents are from similar deliberate sabotage.

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