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Comment by owens99 | Hacker News Reader

This is the trick for popular restaurants/take-out food in NYC: Buy a really small shop so only 3-5 people can fit inside and the rest have to form a line outside. Then take orders and serve people really slowly so the line builds. Pick up the phone even if it doesn’t ring and pretend you are taking orders, etc. Pretty much a textbook strategy. Food must still be good, but the anticipation from a long line makes it taste better and attracts a lot more customers.

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I used to run club nights in the 2000s, where I'd take over a night at a club and do some kind of event, I'd ticket the door, so people would pay like $5 to come in.

Clubs always have a front and a backdoor..... I'd get 20-50 of my friends to line up, the security guy would know who's who... The line would move slowly, the person who went in, would go to the bar grab a small drink, and then exit out the back and re-join the line. The best part is, we would only have to do this for 20-30mins at max.

The queue would grow organically, and the security guard would start letting my friends in at a faster pace, and then slow it down once everyones in.. where we would all have a few more drinks.

With zero marketing I could fill a club by just making the line look big.. Here's the big kicker, the traditional marketing in the day (posters around town + getting people to hand out flyers at other clubs in the morning) cost MORE than just giving a couple free drinks to your friends who waited in line.

I have seen the lack of social proof bury all kinds of promising businesses. We live in an age where people demand authenticity and unique experiences but few are willing to take even moderate chances to gain those experiences.

"20-50 of my friends" on every club night?

I'd take the term "friends" loosely. A club promotor likely has a ton of people they know and could call on.

Exactly this.

These are "friends" in the sense that we both mutually want something from eachother, they want free drinks and VIP access, I want them to do free shit for me.

edit: remember this is pre social networking.

If they were in college, university or first real world job, it’s very likely they had lots or acquaintances they could tap for mutually beneficial help.

I believe it, I used to be involved with an 'ultra lounge' here in Indy and the owner and I had tons of people in our contact list we'd call and send text messages to when we were having a slow night, mostly mid 20's women. We'd tell them to come out, give them a few house shots free which were mostly orange juice with a splash of alcohol, and then people that would walk in would be far more inclined to stay instead of immediately leaving, the girls would often get a drink or two bought for them off walk ins too then they'd usually leave within an hour or two to places more in their price range on the same block and we'd have effectively drawn a self-sustaining crowd.

We'd also put out the brass posts and rope sometimes on slow nights, simply appearing like it was going to be busy enough to have to manage a line was often enough to get people to linger longer.

If a big group came in, like a bridal shower doing a bar craw, we'd usually keep them around longer with a couple of rounds of the house shot too just to keep the female to male ratio up. Eating a few bucks per round of IVs was almost always a good spend in that case.

I know this works - it's the same reason restaurants fill window tables first - but I've never really understood why this motivates people: a huge queue is, without fail, a massive turn-off for me.

I suppose popularity is interpreted as a signal of quality/excitement but, to me at any rate, it's usually a signal of boredom and frustration.

It works better with restaurants: I mean I want to see there's somebody in there eating the food but if it looks too busy, I'm out.

I understand the feeling and mostly share it. But if you are wise about that, would I be mistaken in assuming you are also wise with your spending? Perhaps wiser than what the restaurant owners desire.

Therefore it's probably in their best (financial) interest to select for those who will look for popularity and happily blow away money on high-margin items on the menu.

I used to notice this in shops too, as a teenager. We had a sort alternative mini shopping zone, like a slightly upscale indoor market. As soon as me and a couple of guys went into any empty stall, within a couple of minutes other people would crowd in too. We'd then pick somewhere else and watch the same thing happen. Always amused us.

My own opinion - this comes down to sheepish mentality of majority of the people, maybe combined with rather extrovert personality. Many people want to be told what to wear, what to listen to and watch, and generally what is popular and 'in'.

These people feel great in the crowd, so what is better than seeing a big crowd already trying to get to some bar? They can't be all wrong, right?

I am same as you, too many people put me off(not afraid of the crowds in any way, it just means loud subpar experience). And I agree that totally empty places feel a bit weird (that's probably a tiny sheep in me)

Could it be linked to the "Fear Of Missing Out" as well?

You're talking about Social Proof: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_proof

People go to nightclubs to hook up. They want to know that there are going to be lots of options before paying a cover.

I used to do event promotion and in a real sense the crowd is the product, not the music or the drinks or anything else.

What you work really hard at is cultivating a loyal audience who will show up week after week no matter who you book, and who know how to dance and bring energy in with them.

Clubbing is about people more than anything else.

I have a general rule with restaurants, I won't wait an hour to just be seated... I don't feel that any restaurant is worth that. In general, I'd rather go to #2 or #3 on the list and get in faster. It just depends.

It's kind of like when you get middle of the road food, but the price is right, and you get in and out fast for lunch. My time has value... often more than the price of the restaurant.

Man, I wish I had this kind of genius. Not that it's virtuous or not, but just that you had the option available to you because you knew it.

Fascinating strategy.

I used togo to those clubs back in the day. The lines were very long or sometimes there was a HUGE crowd. The drag queens would then "pick" who was worthy of getting in and who is "not" worthy. it was all about who is gonna spend money and who is not gonna spend money inside. There was also a guest list with nobody on it. The larger the crowd / longer the line the greater the demand to get into the club and it made it feel like the club was PACKED with girls or people or celebs. And we HAD to get in! as did everyone else. They would let girls in with no problem and if you came with a group of guys you would have to wait unless our friend was working at the door then we'd get in with no problem. One time we went out and the Drag queen at the door said to my friend " Go do your laundry" to mean, your not dressed to come in this club tonight.Ha ha.

I worked the door for a friend for a charity event. It was super early, and there was a regular bouncer. This skinny kid comes up and asks if he can go in. I said sure and let him in.

The bouncer comes up and says "what are you doing?!"

Keep in mind, this is my friend's event, for charity. I know all the people involved, and I know it is empty.

"What do you mean?" I ask.

"You can't just let him in."

"What should I do?" I was really curious.

"Ask him if he is on the list. Look at your pad. Go in and check. Then finally let him in."

"Why?"

"It makes him feel better about getting in."

Its like an open secret everyone in the industry knows.

That's like weirdly sweet in a way

What a strange human custom.

If I've made the effort of traveling to a destination, the last thing on my mind would be to much more more I would enjoy it after I was made to jump these hoops by a power tripping gatekeeper.

It wouldn't ruin my day, but it won't make me feel better - that's certain.

I think the "enjoyment" doesn't come from thinking that you passed some test, but rather, that you were allowed in while (it's implied that) others might not be let in. It makes it feel a little more exclusive, like you belong to some special privileged group.

I briefly had a (failed) startup in this area, and I did a lot of research. There are certainly a ton of clubs that do this, and there's an obvious reason why: in nightclubs, your product is your customers. They don't show up for your mediocre DJ or overpriced drinks from a bartender that takes an hour to get to you, they show up because there are people there...and a line communicates that there are people there.

So yes, the reasoning behind this is solid, but the problem is that the results aren't. What happens when the person who has waited an hour in line finally gets in and the club only has 20 people in it? They see right through your sham, and they never wait in your line ever again.

I've interviewed quite a few managers of successful clubs and tons of managers of unsuccessful clubs. The unsuccessful clubs are the ones trying to create the illusion of a packed house by creating lines outside, or other illusory shams like guerilla marketing. The successful ones definitely do most things better (food, drinks, ambiance, music, etc.) but they also rely extremely heavily on a similar illusion: they don't pay people to wait in line, they pay people to drink and dance inside the club. They literally have a Rolodex of professional partiers...typically young and attractive, mostly female but not exclusively so. They are people that don't mind dancing and having a good time when nobody is around. Successful clubs pay them to get there early and create the illusion of a party that is already started. They skip past the need for a first follower [1] by starting the night with 20 followers.

Paying people to stand in line may trick people into thinking a club is popular, but it won't trick them into having a good time in an emtpy club that they waited hours to get into.

[1] https://getlighthouse.com/blog/first-follower-principle-lead...

This, I think, is what a Philz Coffee did when it opened near me. The very first day, or week, there were a bunch of really attractive people there in indoor and outdoor seating. After a few days the quality dropped off.

The quality of people?

I had a friend who waited in a line assuming it was something cool. ... It was the line for a food kitchen.

The vast majority of tiny takeout places in NYC will never have a line of people outside, and they rent those places because real estate is expensive, not because they’re trying to appear more popular than they are. And if you watch the staff behind the counter and in the kitchen of the truly popular ones with lines, they’re definitely NOT taking their time. The throughput of tiny NYC restaurants is impressive. Occam’s razor applies here, even if it’s less interesting.

Don't tell this to marketing gurus. It destroys all of the castles they build in the sky.

I remember taking a friend to Tacos Moreno in Santa Cruz. The line was around the block, despite the super fast service - when we got to the front, I had my burrito before he was done placing his (straightforward) order.

We’re talking about different places.

"I mean the true Scotsman!"

You definitely presented it as the strategy for popular takeout places in NYC. And it's not.

I will try to be more clear next time.

I wouldn't say it's the same.

What these shops are doing is create scarcity based on real demand. While it is somehow artificially created, the customers are real. The exclusivity of the experience then creates more demand.

What the article describes is different. They would be the same only if these restaurants would be paying friends to keep the restaurant busy, to later sell it at a higher price.

True.

There are a number of ice cream places that do this in SF (Bi-Rite comes first to mind). Basically they encourage everyone to slowly make up their mind while sampling every flavor, so the wait takes at least 20 minutes.

That's a marketing strategy and not just nice service?

It can be both.

Sounds like win-win to me.

Unless you're at the back of the line ;)

Because we all know rent is free and it is better to be seen as cool selling to 30 customers than selling to 300.

That's the kind of marketing that makes places have "Marshall's Legal Possession" papers attached to the door.

In Poland, during communist times, there were often shortages of basic necessities at stores. Long lines of people were a signal that something rare was on sale. This led to people getting conditioned that if there is a queue, you get in and wait and only then ask what is being sold.

Queues are much more rare now and when they happen, it's for a different reason. However, I still sometimes get the "What's on sale?" question from passerby's.

This is the quintessential Eastern bloc experience.

Absolutely. It's interesting how it engrained itself in the human psyche, even after almost three decades have passed.

Yeah, fascinating. "Eastern Bloc" countries certainly have cultural memories from those lines. But.. the UK and probably some other places have a special cultural relationship with queues too.

You reminded me my childhood. When I was about 6 years old, I'd be sent to the shop about 30 minutes before it opens. There was already queue in the morning of elderly people waiting for an hour or longer. Every single morning.

Nothing was for sale. It just that local bakery would supply only about 200 loaves of bread so it would be sold out pretty quick after opening. When you came home with fresh bread, it did feel like an achievement and the day was only about to start!

Nobody in those times would question why bakery can't bake more if there is more demand. It was just the way it was. Centrally-planned economy where someone higher up has decided 200 a day will be the supply for the area.

There were a lot of jokes about 2 people lining up behind nothing, watching as 20 people join the queue and then walking off.

This is one of those things that always gets repeated, but I have some strong doubts about how successful it could be. You are deliberately slowing your revenue stream by limiting your throughput, and losing customers due to the long line deterrence. Popularity may get you in the news, but it doesn't pay the bills by itself...you need to actually sell stuff to do that.

I have doubts that it would even work as a way to get your name on the map. If you have a new restaurant, your arrivals are going to be so slow that if you even tried to limit your speed to the point where you build a line out the door, your customers are going to see right through it. Initial 1-star reviews for things like taking too long to get your food to the customers would be far more damaging to your business than the benefit of having a line out the door as some sort of quality signal.

If it were possible to know the opportunity costs of the strategy, it would make for an interesting optimization problem. As it stands, I can't help but think it's purely a losing strategy. The restaurant industry is counterintuitive for almost everybody...shitty restaurants can stick around forever, and extremely popular restaurants regularly go out of business. Cash flow is King. If you are sacrificing cash flow in exchange for popularity, you may succeed in becoming popular, but good luck sticking around and making money.

I wonder the same thing. But I watch and see the super successful places start by doing this. So either they care more about fame than about profits, or it works. Of course, for some places this absolutely won't work. If the product isn't unique, it won't work. People will just leave the line and go to another place. So I assume the key metric would be what % of people wait vs. leave the line.

>This is the trick for popular restaurants/take-out food in NYC: Buy a really small shop so only 3-5 people can fit inside and the rest have to form a line outside.

Isn't there some t-shirt store there like that, always has a ridiculous line that requires police to oversee just to sell some t-shirts?

You may be thinking of "Supreme", a brand that makes money off of scarcity. The ridiculous line comes from very limited supply and insane resale value of their clothing.

Yup that looks like it.

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