Half of lonely people think no one will notice if something bad happens to them | Hacker News Reader

Half of lonely people think no one will notice if something bad happens to them

thesun.ie

258 pointslaurex138 comments

Sometimes I feel that it can be a lucrative trap to become invested in a single person, and then accumulate expectations that far outweigh the responsible obligations of any friendship.

As I have gotten older, a pattern that is working much better for me is the campfire model - I just try to keep a metaphorical campfire going, for people traveling through this life to stop and warm themselves upon while I tend it. I cannot know which direction people are traveling from, or to, or how long their journey has been or will be. But all people need to warm their calloused hands and feet, and I can keep this fire with a bed of rosy coals.

Sometimes someone will stop at my fire and warm themselves without my ever having paid attention, but to them it may have meant all the difference in the world. By keeping this obligation in mind, to simply expect people to need a place to sit a spell, I can at least believe I am helping.

The campfire is a nice way for me to remember we're all suffering, that not a one of us is unique to loneliness. Because sometimes that person who sits down at your fire is the person you have been waiting for, and only by making a seat for them were you able to ever meet.

I'm not quite sure what to say, except that I found what you just wrote to be quite beautiful. I hope you find many fires to warm yourself at.

+1 One of the best life analogies I’ve ever heard.

> Sometimes I feel that it can be a lucrative trap to become invested in a single person, and then accumulate expectations that far outweigh the responsible obligations of any friendship.

I don't meen this cynically, but isn't this the entire idea behind modern marriage. (Of course marriage adds an expectation of reciprocity, which is what keeps us from viewing it as exploitative; and an expectation of exclusivity, which seems orthogonal)

I like this idea a lot. It goes away from the regular though that you get a friend that is forever that is there for you for good and bad, and puts you into the driver seat. I also liked that it is in general a framework for being a good person.

Where did you learn this? My Google search didn't get that far

This is a very selfless way of living, and for that you have my respect. But the chief cause of loneliness for many people is the fear that the person they were waiting for will never come:

There is a fire which burns inside me, but no-one stays 'round long enough to warm themselves.

Knowing this, if you can truly remain steadfast in your positive outlook on life, then you have achieved true strength. Hard to do in an oversocialized world.

Meditation, mindfulness, and stoicism is my antidote to deriving happiness and self identity from others. This campfire model explains how I've been treating relationships and staving loneliness. Those who don't stay around long enough is expected/anticipated and my baseline value, anything that deviates towards staying around longer gives me energy rather than drains it towards depression/loneliness. Keeping busy with social hobbies helps.

I feel like loneliness is somehow related to the lack of connecting with others on a human level, assuming it isn't caused by lack of certain neurotransmitters where meds will help balance you out.

But the person you're waiting for may never come. Life isn't some romance movie where you're destined to meet "the one".

I've learned to embrace that and have taken solace in living in the moment with the people around me instead of wondering what else could be out there and what I might be missing out on.

Could you elaborate more concretely about this campfire model?

edit: Asking because I'm having a hard time visualizing the metaphor applied to reality. Do you find/make friends ("campers"?) differently? Would they consider you a friend, or are these relationships more broad with less depth? How does maintaining the fire relate to maintaining friendships? Are you just a support person handing out favors with little expectation of reciprocity? If so does that feel fulfilling compared to deeply investing in a smaller number of people?

Yes that was what I was wondering too.

I have known several people who hosted regular casual Wednesday night dinner parties. They were very low-key and generally based around some activity like going to a farmer's market or watching a movie or playing board games. It was generally understood that anyone who was a regular attendee could invite their own guests. So while the parties started with a small group of friends from work, they grew to be a more diverse set of people over time. People would drift in and out and attendance would be different each week.

Although I moved away and don't really keep in touch, I have fond memories of those get-togethers and still consider the people I met at those parties friends. I really like the analogy of a campfire for something like this. All it takes to start a little community is one person to provide a regular meeting place, something to do, and, crucially, some food.

Exactly. Here in SV, there is the Monday Night Pizza Klatch that is exactly that -- a group of geeks get together to be with like-minded geeks and eat pizza. It's been going for probably a decade or so now; and sometimes various famous and semi-famous SV geeks float in.

I much like u/modeless had a similar experience. I personally really like board games and would host or facilitate weekly board game nights.

To be more specific:

- Do you find/make friends ("campers"?) differently?

No, I just have space and time during the week where people pass through or remain for a season of life (or more). I still make acquaintances doing other activities in my life which grow into friendships at varied depths.

- Would they consider you a friend, or are these relationships more broad with less depth?

I would say all of the above, it depends on what you're defining as a friend. If everyone that isn't a stranger is your friend. Yes, I imagine so. I personally would say that I have made several friends who bring in people who are friends of friends, so an acquaintance to me at least initially. I also have the occasional person whom I invite from another part of my life that I don't feel stranger-danger about being in my home.

- How does maintaining the fire relate to maintaining friendships?

If they're present, then it's a bonding activity. If they're not, it's something that they've bonded over.

- Are you just a support person handing out favors with little expectation of reciprocity?

I'm not the guy that pumps your gas, if that is what you're asking.

I had a good friend who just had open "hang out" time every day after work in his garage. There was a group of about 30 friends who might stop by any time between 5 and 8 PM, have a beer, hang out and BS. Sometimes it was just Paul and 1 or 2 others, sometimes 15 people showed up, sometimes Paul wasn't even there, but the garage was always open (if you had the code). I used to go almost every day between work and home, it's how i made about half the friends I have now. It was also where weekend plans got made and many a hunting/fishing/camping trip got planned there.

That's over now and I really miss it. Buddy had some health problems and ended up with an overwhelming opiate addiction and just stopped hanging out with anyone. Some of the friends still get together for a weekend poker game but it's not the same. It was so cool to have a place you could go hang out after work where you knew everyone was fun to be around and they liked having you around. You never know who would be there or what the conversation would be but it was always a good time.

I've tried to get the same thing going myself, but have never been successful. I'm not sure how you get that started. Once it's going, it's self-sustaining, but you have to reach a critical mass of participants and has to occur really regularly, even daily. I think maybe it takes a very specific kind of person to be the host.

Anyway, that's what the OP's campfire analogy made me think of. I really miss it...

I have to imagine there are people who could offer the same “hang out” accommodations and have little or no turnout.

That sounds like a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place but without any institution behind it.

Interesting, the list of attributes of a third place sums up the techno scene in my city almost exactly, except I'd say that conversation isn't necessarily the main activity.

The scene is small enough that you always run into the same people every time you're out.

Sucks man, I hope one day he kicks the habit and you guys can hang out again. It's tough seeing things like this.

Yes, it sucks. But I suspect that his reticence about hanging out had more to do with the pain than the opioid addiction. In my experience, opioid addicts can be quite social. At least, when they're not nodding out or in withdrawal. I don't like them much as friends, however, because you'll likely never matter more to them than avoiding withdrawal. Same with alcoholics and other addicts.

> I've tried to get the same thing going myself, but have never been successful. I'm not sure how you get that started. Once it's going, it's self-sustaining, but you have to reach a critical mass of participants and has to occur really regularly, even daily. I think maybe it takes a very specific kind of person to be the host.

You don't need to be the host. Indeed, the host can be some organization. A place of worship, if that appeals. Or a Unitarian "Church", if you're not religious. Or a hackerspace. Or really, any sort of interest group. Even the neighborhood bar, if it's a good one.

And maybe, once you get to know enough people, you can host parties, and people will show up.

As an atheist, I do envy the religious people their weekly meetups!

Trivia works. I go to two trivias (M/W) almost every week. I have a group of about 6 people that show up (random which subset) to each (not the same people) to play on my team, sometimes more (used to be a lot more but some people moved). And the other teams are people I knew before going there or have come to know since starting. Pleasant way to spend a couple hours a couple times a week. A bit of hanging out, a bit of competitive fun, and more hanging out.

Can you just randomly drop in solo or with another person to a trivia night? I've been to a few, but only ever as a sub on an "established" team.

I'm pretty welcoming and gregarious, I have had random people join my team before when they asked (my teammates were less comfortable at first, but relaxed and welcomed them later). This will definitely depend on the crowd. It may be easier to start your own team (or playing solo at the bar) and just start getting to know the other teams for a while first before asking to join them.

It also depends on the location. One is a restaurant, people are generally less welcoming to random folks sitting at their dining table (unfortunately). The other location is a bar. It's much easier to just join a random team. Find 3 people sitting at the bar and ask if you can join them. Or, like the last folks that joined us, find a table with several empty seats and ask to join them.

It's true. I'm a chuch-goer and have a couple of board gaming groups going from people I met at church. I've met all kinds of people at church that I probably wouldn't have met otherwise. There are computer chip designers, software engineers, accountants, doctors, police officers, a navy seal, a lumber mill operator, professors, scientists, veterans living at the local salvation army center, psychologists, business people, economists, etc.

Meetup.com might have meetups for people you might find you have a lot in common with

Meetup.com has issues. Their recent site redesign pushes people not to be loyal to groups and use it as a "what can it do for me right now" It's killed group identities and there have been a loss of groups. (Orgs have complained very loudly.. but meetup doesn't care)

I've seen this happen in my group and we're looking to see what's next.

Join a club for people with common interests. Or find a new interest - I started CrossFit 2 years ago with no prior interest in fitness and to me the social aspect is as important as the fitness aspect, if not moreso.

Of course, there are non religious social activities.

But none that are so completely unforced where you can just show up once a week for no reason and be welcomed. Or so it seems from the outside.

There was a weekly freestyle dance in New York City that I attended, many years ago. In a studio, with a good wood floor, near Broadway and Houston. It was run by a collective, and part of a northeast association, which had summer dance camps. As I recall, it cost $5 at the door, and less if you subscribed. All ages were welcome, even toddlers. Maybe it still exists. And there are many others, for different dance styles.

For most of us hacker-types, that's a good role for hackerspaces to fulfill!

The happiest guy I know has this exact setup at his place. It’s a group of about 15 people of which at least 5-6 show up daily to have a beer, plays cards, and generally pass the evening hours.

Coming from a fast paced corporate world, it’s a uniquely beautiful experience.

You just described a bar.

How often do you turn up to a bar on your own unplanned, expecting to see friends there?

Back when I used to hang out at bars far too much, quite often. However it probably wasn't the healthiest of behavior.

If you make a bar into your "local", then you can do so whenever you like.

That's pretty much what every local bar is. Have you never seen Cheers... that's what bars are. That's what being a regular is. The other regulars become your friends.

basically, he hosted a clubhouse.

I feel like I have this setup. For the last 3 years, I’ve been going to a cafe in downtown SF. Over the course of this time, I’ve met people who’ve become best friends, roommates, ppl to do side projects with and much more. Friends know if they want to talk to me they can very reliably just walk in and find me there 8/10 times.

The cool thing about this set up is that you make new friends on a rolling basis which is key because friends you hang with will occasionally move elsewhere or change lifestyles. Over the course of the 3 years, I think the following implicit principles have worked really well:

- We have no expectations of finding each other.

- We don’t make plans.

- On the rare occasion that we make plans, it is very informal. You’re free to flake / be late without being nagged or feeling like you’ve someone waiting on you (they aren’t.)

- Very concrete plans are reserved for events (sad and happy) like a breakup or career chat — in those cases, I’ll make sure to be there at the time I expect the friend.

Having once experienced true deep friendship, like everything, it sets your standard perhaps irrevocably too high.

I've found the campfire model to produce a lot of mental distress and anguish, since no one is invested in anyone, there's no incentive to grow and as time passes, you start viewing these passing relationships as disposable.

Don't get me wrong, the campfire model is fine as an aspect of general hospitality, but to truly call these passersby your friends would not be correct. They don't contribute to your safety net, nor are you likely in turn to contribute to theirs.

Perhaps I'm not as selfless as you. I just want to be surrounded by people who have "skin in the game", because true friendship and a sense of camaraderie is only built through overcoming difficulties together.

> Because sometimes that person who sits down at your fire is the person you have been waiting for, and only by making a seat for them were you able to ever meet

It's a nice analogy, but a little too romanticized for me.

>> you start viewing these passing relationships as disposable.

I would say that all relationships are temporary. Even in marriage, one party usually dies before the other and that person has then left for good. To realize that relationships are inherently temporary does not mean they are disposable - that word suggests something of low value, like garbage. When you accept that things are temporary perhaps it will help you appreciate the people who stick around, or come indoors from the cold/campfire and stay longer.

It's not easy to accept the world this way. It requires (and fosters) a sense of peace with oneself among other things. That's something worth working toward even if you're not there yet.

This definition of “temporary” defeats the entire purpose of the word. There’s a massive difference between “a lifetime” and “a day, a month, a year”.

Redefining all "temporary" friendships as disposable also defeats the purpose of the word, and is in my eyes much more detrimental to your surroundings than accepting that friendships are (might be) temporary.

An anecdote supporting your first point: I became very close friends with a a guy about my age when I started college. We had lots of awesome adventures, moved in together, and lasted about 7 years together. Eventually I got a job that required me to move away. I started making great money and my life was changing. After only a few years I quit the job and moved back home to be closer to my family and friends, specially this guy.

I seem to have forgotten the nasty, irrational and mean-spirited aspects of his personality. When I returned, I was reminded that our friendship and fun time was also dependant on his reckless and insensitive behavior, of which I've always resented, and tried to shed from my own life over the years.

Now that I'm back home, I'm remembering his full personality, and realizing what a chore it was putting up with sometimes.

Wow, this was profound and I hope this way of thinking will make a big difference in my life going forward. Thank you for this!

Do you blog/tweet/etc other thoughts about this kind of thing? That's a great philosophy and I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on surrounding topics.

This campfire analogy is brilliant, and I am going to start thinking of life more in this manner. Thanks for that.

thank you for writing this. It makes me reflect. As I grow older, I realize more and more than connections in life come and go. Life is really a passing of many different people in your story. Some will stay for very long while some will only be there for a short bit of time.

May I message you ? I feel you can help and advice me about a difficult situation.

Sure! Hit my profile.

Reminded of this bit from Carl Rogers’ “A Way of Being”.

“People are just as wonderful as sunsets if you let them be. When I look at a sunset, I don't find myself saying, "Soften the orange a bit on the right hand corner." I don't try to control a sunset. I watch with awe as it unfolds.”

Someone called this selfless but I see a very strong selfishness in this approach, sure you're at the center of your life but if we all stand by our own fires, nobody meets anybody and it is important to recognize when you go sit by someone else's fire because that part is dearly missing from your description.

I suppose a campfire implies the person tending it is stationary but metaphorically, I imagined our campfires are all moving not unlike spaceships coming in and out of docking. Travellers come and go but they inhabit the same space rather than them all travelling to and from one person.

I don't have any critique or anything to add. I just want to say that this resonates with me very deeply. I'm very happy to have this complex feeling articulated in such a beautiful way.

Thank you for sharing.

This is probably the most beautiful thing I've read on HN.

> Sometimes I feel that it can be a lucrative trap to become invested in a single person, and then accumulate expectations that far outweigh the responsible obligations of any friendship.

It's taken me a long time to realise that relationships are not symmetrical, and that they aren't supposed to be.

There are people who I feel very strongly towards (not necessarily romantically) who don't feel the same way back to me, and I'm certain that there are people who feel the same way towards me.

Relationships are also not permanent. People come in to your life, and sometimes fade from your life. This isn't a bad thing either, but just a reality. There are a lot of people who I was good friends with who I'm not really in contact with any more (generally because I moved to a different city/country or they did). We all have our own journey in life which intersects with others. Sometimes we run straight past each other and sometimes we run parallel for a while.

The quality of a relationship isn't measured in time. Some of the most genuine and meaningful interactions I've had have been with people I met only for a few days or even a few hours.

The skeptic in me is very wary of romanticizing the campfire model. For me it has generated a lot of short term happiness but very few lasting, deeply committed relationships. And if you look at human history, this model is the exception, not the norm; virtually all civilizations across time have relied primarily on enduring family networks for support. In the past couple hundred years workplace and university networks have become sources of enduring relationships as well. We have good reasons to believe that these relationships are important to health, longevity and happiness.

I would not hesitate to start a campfire and see what it yields but I also wouldn't expect it to yield what truly matters.

The modern (western) world provides very little bedrock for people to build a psychological foundation. We argue with our families, our employers can dump us at any time, we divorce our spouses, friends are always moving on or marrying off. Contrast that to the model of multi-generational family based ties which has endured throughout history and I have to wonder, is our society even going to last in its current form?

> Sometimes I feel that it can be a lucrative trap to become invested in a single person, and then accumulate expectations that far outweigh the responsible obligations of any friendship.

This fixation on the spouse is kind of a modern oddity as well. In many societies past and present, your spouse, your parents, your kids, and maybe even your grandparents and grandkids are all of roughly equal importance.

> "This fixation on the spouse is kind of a modern oddity as well. In many societies past and present, your spouse, your parents, your kids, and maybe even your grandparents and grandkids are all of roughly equal importance."

Can you cite something for this?

The Wikipedia article on extended family looks like a good primer on the diversity of family structures that exists around the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_family

Rather than "everyone is roughly equal" it's probably more accurate to say that the degree of power, dependence and investment between family members varies dramatically from culture to culture. The nuclear model is certainly widespread in modern times, but multi-generational models are still very common, especially in Asia.

The post-familial model, where Thanksgiving becomes Friendsgiving because you don't have any blood relatives you know and like, is surely the newest and rarest. I think having friends who are more important than extended family, let alone immediate family, is a pretty modern phenomenon.

Lack of non-familial nursing homes.

> I also wouldn't expect it to yield what truly matters.

To you. Others may have different perspectives on that.

I love these words so much. They hit home in a real way for me. Thank you for sharing them!

While this mentality seems comforting, make no mistake: its appeal is only a consequence of the erosion of family and community over the last 200 years in the western world.

As a commenter said below: an avoidance of long-term commitments leads to a society that doesn’t plan very far into the future.

> Sometimes I feel that it can be a lucrative trap to become invested in a single person, and then accumulate expectations that far outweigh the responsible obligations of any friendship.

Lately I feel like this about traditional romantic relationships as well. After a while many people start developing expectations of the other person and assume that they will or can meet all of your needs, when that's actually pretty unrealistic. I was in a six year relationship when I noticed that my partner wasn't meeting my needs anymore, and that my expectations of him which had grown over the years weren't really aligned with a healthy reality; this applied the other way around as well in terms of my partner's expectations of me as a person who's changed over the years. I recently left the relationship and am now re-examining my own outlook on the traditional relationship models.

Right there too.

"it can be a lucrative trap to become invested in a single person, and then accumulate expectations that far outweigh the responsible obligations of any friendship"

Expectations aren't what friendship is about. A friendship is a little club where you conspire to make both your lives better

How does starting a campfire work in practice?

I salute your wisdom, digitalsushi.

On the days that weigh us down, we can remember our meetings (however brief) with people who are open and/or kind and/or thoughtful - as well as those who responded to a dilemma with a helpful solution and without expectations of gain.

Calling such meetings 'mere romanticism' is to be blind to the fact that there is much about the world that we cannot comprehend. Sometimes coincidences pile up far beyond what the numbers declare possible. It's all lost on those who scoff ... and they may indeed die unnoticed.

My mom (who lives alone and is approaching 80) and I have an agreement: she emails me every morning with "hey" in the subject and no body if she doesn't feel like it. If I don't get an email, I call.

Since we started doing this (years), I feel more connected to her, and we often have conversations that last a while. I can't remember the last time I got a blank email.

Sounds like a good agreement and happy that it works out for you. I seem to remain childless and worry sometimes for the time I am in your mother's age

I make it a point to call my mom on my 15 minute drive home instead of popping on another podcast. After my father passed, it took me a few years to reflect on the loneliness that she could be feeling. She looks forwards to these calls and I know that they provide a good connection for both of us.

I am considering getting her an apple watch in the next year or two for the emergency call features and fall detection.

Considering? Do it! It's your mom. She deserves it.

This is a weird consequence of getting airpods, but now that I always have the ability to listen and talk I am speaking a lot more with friends that I used to.

I use the walkie talkie function with my mom quite a bit. Luckily, she doesn't initiate with me much but I think she enjoys it when I randomly pop in to ask to see how shes doing.

Which phone is this? I remember those a while back but never see them anymore.

I think they are talking about Apple Watch

Apple Watch has fall detection?

I believe it monitors and can report the wearers heart rate too. Seems like a great buy for people worried about elderly relatives.

Series 4 does. If a fall is detected and the watch is not interacted with, it will SMS your emergency contact and call emergency services.

I like it.

very nice

I don't think it's the "notice" part here. It's the "caring" part. To know that if something happens to you all your relatives and friends won't care or feel anything for losing you is the part that hurts, as for noticing. For sure they'll notice.

The question isn't whether people will notice if you die. It's whether people will notice if something bad happens. It's not a euphemism:

> One in nine didn't feel like they had anyone in their lives who they could rely on in a crisis.

It's entirely unsurprising that lonely people think other people won't notice if they're in a crisis -- that's what being lonely is.

There's a song called "How Do You Get That Lonely?", about a boy who committed suicide, in which the last lines of the chorus are:

    How do you feel so empty
    you want to let it all go
    How do you get that lonely
    and nobody know

But this has never made any sense to me -- surely, if the problem is that you're so lonely that the best option available to you is killing yourself, it's to be expected that other people weren't familiar with your situation.

Other people may well understand the situation all too well, but have no idea what to do about it. That can include professional help in some cases. Depression is a bad thing and outsiders often have no way to penetrate to the victim and say they care.

>you're so lonely that the best option available to you is killing yourself

The best option available would always be to meet a random person on the street because ending up with a bad person would not be as bad as dying.

People who agree would obviously do that instead of killing themselves, so you're just preaching to the choir.

My point is that suicide isn't usually a rational decision.

That depends entirely on your evaluation criteria. Your point is only that you don't want to commit suicide. Other people may.

Most people who commit suicide are not accurately judging their situation, due to a long term mental illness like depression, or often due to a momentary emotional upset. Just because someone "wants" to do something doesn't mean that it would actually serve their interests, and it doesn't even mean that they would want it one hour in the future.

Maybe in general there's a lack of caring, but I think there's more at play.

I have friends (I know care about me) who simply can't have a serious conversation about hard or uncomfortable subjects. They wont engage... When everything is sunshine and rainbows this seems just fine, but when you're in tears over something, or feeling really bad, it's almost scary to see.

That's something weird about us~. We all notice. Very rarely do people fail to see. They often stay in their persona due to weaknesses, fatigue or fear.

I'm positive if I died no one would notice for at least 2-3 months, maybe more

I live abroad. I have no truly close friends. The closest friend has 2 kids so I see him maybe once every 2 months. My family is 7000+ miles away. I talk to them about once every 3-8 months. The biggest issue is the time difference. Those times when I think "I feel like calling" it's always the wrong time so it's usually only when I'm up at 3am and instead of going to sleep I tell myself "Ok, I guess I should stay up another hour to call".

I'm self employed. 80% of my expenses are automated. (should be 100% really)

So, if I died a couple of friends might think I was rude for not answering their messages on slack or fb messenger but it would be quite a while before someone came and checked. Unless there was a smell or something coming from the apartment there really is no one I can think of that would check up on me.

Yes, I want to fix this situation. Stupidly I don't know how. I'm > 50yrs old. When I go out most people are < 40yrs old. Of course we get along but being in different places in your life can make it hard to relate the same way that people in the same place in life relate. I go to meetups and know a few people's names but haven't made any "friends".

>My family is 7000+ miles away. I talk to them about once every 3-8 months. The biggest issue is the time difference. Those times when I think "I feel like calling" it's always the wrong time

It's not actually natural for humans to choose to experience social interaction every time it happens (historically, we didn't). It can help if you pick a time in advance and then call no matter what. It will almost always be easier than you thought after you start talking.

Stupidly I don't know how

If you like, we can become email friends, just to keep in touch. I may or may be able to relate to you, but I promise to try sincerely. I see myself going the same route, so...

On a meta level:

Do you have any ideas on how to think about situations like this? Surely, there must be millions of people who feel the same?

I actually don't have any ideas but I do think there are at least 2 opportunities.

1. A better meetup.com

I have no idea if there is a way to make a better one so maybe there is no solution. What I find though is few meetups are actually that good. I have no idea how to make them better. Sponsor them? Hire organizers?

I know this is a hard problem. For example there was that "dinewithus.com" service and I guess the biggest issue is odds are low that the people you end up dinning with are actually people you want to be around.

2. A better dating service

I see 2 problems with dating services today. (a) too many women get scared away from too many DTF messages which reduces the pool greatly (b) too many people not trying hard enough or not putting in the effort or unsure how to get the fire started. Examples are profiles with no info. Profiles with no pictures. Profiles with generic info "I like dining and travel". When matching bad messages "Hi!" etc..

I think there are creative ideas that might help with both a and b issues. It might be impossible but I think it would be interesting to try.

Hmmm. With dating services, there is a higher level of expectation than just a site for friends. I kinda wish there is a way to just meet people and talk - no other high expectations to begin with at least. After all, the first step in dating is becoming a friend, isn't it?

Bumble Friends/BFF is that.

Re 1, Hire organizers who have provable matchmaking skills at scale.

What about group dating? 6-10 people having food drinks, discussions, playing games? No awkwardness associated with 1-1 dating, no need to commit or reject. No need to write up a profile or anything- just go and see how it goes, see if you make any connections with someone.

Place yourself in situations that are necessarily social, but with a focus that is not on socializing: a sports team, a running group, a volunteer activity.

You're more than welcome to email me to chat. I too live abroad and have for several years. I absolutely get what you mean.

My email is my username at gmail.

It's super common for women in your age range to be somewhat lonely (although usually they have kids, but they will be grown kids who are off feeling invincible). Do you date at all? Even if it doesn't work out with some it could be a way to meet potential friends?

Loneliness is usually presented as a matching or communication problem: if only all the lonely people could find each other, and had the social skills to initiate contact, all would be well.

But what if it’s deeper than that? Could we be losing the life/personality traits that make people interested in us? Overstimulated by other sources so that friendships with ordinary people are not interesting uses of time?

For example, just because you yourself are overweight, does not mean you will be attracted to other overweight people. So we should expect a decline in sexual relationships as the prevalence of obesity rises.

> if only all the lonely people could find each other, and had the social skills to initiate contact, all would be well.

I'd say I have very good social skills, never have a problem getting to know people when I take the time. The problem is I'm simultaneously a bit lonely (not a desperation level though) - but also not interested (in meeting people). It's really weird. Note that the "not interested" does not come from a(ny) level of depression, there is none (I know because I used to have a noticeable level of it many years ago, so I know how it feels to be incapacitated by even a small bit of that affliction). I just don't find most people interesting enough. That's not a "looking down" kind of feeling, but merely a mismatch.

A big part of it is the way we all live our lives though, I think. I want (a larger) community and cannot find or even see it, no so much "the one" friendship, or even "just friends". Having superficial talks now and then just isn't enough for me, I'm looking for a larger purpose.

I have less than average social skills but I mostly feel the same way, so for me socialization is even less worth it.

What I trying to make happen is to build a community of people with similar goals and world views, so we can have productive conversations about interesting ideas and actually produce something I care about.

I think you are just a guy who is at wrong place, at wrong time.

Maybe you should try changing your circle of friends and meet different people, that can instantly change your mood.

For example, at the place that I'm working, I felt the same way, then I found a nerdy group of people playing DnD. Instantly I felt better and I have people that I can call friends that I can just hang out with.

My 2 cents :)

> So we should expect a decline in sexual relationships as the prevalence of obesity rises.

I don't have the numbers at hand, but AFAIK it's the case. People on average have less and less sexual relations, despite the so-called "hookup culture". Not sure it's a causality link, though.

Currently, I have a friend (and in addition family & romantic relationships, a small number, maybe a total of 5 people I really care about). These "inner circle" relationships are the best use of my time I have ever found. However I have basically no interest in the "get to know you" small talk people engage in at parties or hobby groups. I don't like pretending or seeing other people pretend, so I never manage to actually make friends the normal way. All my platonic friends have come to me during a time of crisis where they were somewhat vulnerable and I was somewhat restless and it causes a sort of break where all kinds of things not normally allowed by polite society become possible, and that makes them interesting to me and they become my friend. (This is not a problem with family relationships because all families have dysfunction, and it's not a problem with romantic relationships because sex is great at generating intimacy and letting people off their masks.)

Is there a way to meet people (that doesn't involve sex, drugs or joining the army) where you can find out essential things about what they fear, want, etc in 1-5 encounters or do you have to put up with months of pointless lying if you want friends?

You are doing small talk wrong if you are lying. Also why not just be blunt with things you want to know about people? It will put off a lot of people. But what is the point of lying ?

I made one of my best friends by asking him about gender roles and Catholicism the second time I ever met him, when I found out he was Catholic.

Sure. I mean maybe a few people actually care.. your parents, siblings and family, maybe your colleagues if you are lucky. All real estate is local as is anything that happens to you. Look at how we as a society treat the least able, the poor and the homeless. It's no wonder that the lonely don't expect any help because we as a society expect someone to reach out by definition. We are too busy doing nothing to help anyone else outside of our small circle.

Is there anyone that suffered a sort of midlife crisis after university? I fortunately have a job as a developer doing what I set out, but find I'm lacking the social connections I once had, especially since moving to a new city with few connections, the ones which I have already I'm fortunate to have, but still the feeling of loneliness creeps into me when I feel like I have no excuse to me. I think I'm lacking the deep relationship where I can open up to someone about how I really feel, rather than the usual conversation of what I _think_. (overthinking infact being a reoccurring problem)

In my opinion, Loneliness & Global Warming are the most immediate existential threats facing humanity.

I don't think loneliness is an "existential threat", it's just a crisis. I have a hard time imagining the human species being wiped out because we're lonely. I would think that would fix itself long before it got to that point.

Climate change on the other hand...

Loneliness, or alienation, can certainly be exploited by politicians & the malevolent. Not as grave as climate change but possibly impactful at scale.

I'm not especially a lonely person, I have a job, I have hobbies almost every day of the week, but I live alone and sometimes wonder how long it would take for people to notice "hey, this is really strange, anybody got news?" if I had an accident.

That’s so sad! If anyone wants a pen pal or someone to talk to I’m game!

how can i reach you, email me at my username @testimonly.com and i will be happy to talk to you.

Email me! Alex at Alexandarnarayan dot com

we are living in a time that without noticing it we are focusing on the quantity, not the quality of our connections. how can we shift our thoughts and senses to the latter?

As I read the article, I was most puzzled as to how people could possibly be afraid of such a trifle as loneliness.

The answer is in the buried-lead at the end:

>According to the Campaign To End Loneliness, loneliness has been found to speed up cognitive decline in older people, with one study concluding that it can increase your risk of developing clinical dementia by 64 per cent.

>Increasing the risk of high blood pressure, coronary heart disease and stroke, as well as disability, loneliness has also been found to increase your risk of dying early by 26 per cent - that's as much as obesity and smoking.

> So this isn't just a social problem - it's a potential health crisis.

This results in the question: how can we re-engineer humanity so that our 22nd-century cousins' physical health isn't dependent on, well, dealing with people?

(On second thought, it maybe doesn't result in that question after all: because nobody alive today could actually benefit from such an effort.)

To all those that identify with feeling this way... Remember that it's statistically impossible that no one will notice. For better or worse, at least the mailperson will notice eventually.

Not that I identify under said group but people can feel lonely living in a home of other people too.

Edit: fixed time

Well, how about this one? They noticed it after 5 months:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2515097/Oxfordshire...

The title is misleading, they have most likely only been dead for a few months since their bodies were found still decomposing.

There are other such cases:

A woman's skeleton was discovered in her flat three years after she is believed to have died, it emerged today.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatfeedback/4199730/Skel...

Your logic counters my observations during 2 years underemployer, 52 weeks unemployed, and 25 weeks homeless... after 15+ years in good standing with the professional world (aka. with things people envied).

That isn't so much your absence being noticed/cared about directly, though, as it is that your lack of carrying-out some expected duty of yours is impugning upon someone else's duties.

I don't find it very cheering to think that I'd only be discovered dead in my home because someone got angry that they couldn't fit any more mail in my mailbox, and complained to their manager about it. (Or because someone got grossed out by the scent of decay coming from my apartment, or because I never paid my bills and the repossessors attempted to visit me, etc.)

It's quite different in kind from even the most casual positive memory, e.g. a barista who makes note of the fact that a customer who they used to see every day at 3PM, isn't coming in any more.

"For years, the payments went out of the woman's bank account. Nobody batted an eyelid. Bills were paid. And life went on as normal in the quiet neighborhood of Pontiac, Michigan. Neighbors didn't notice anything unusual. The woman traveled a lot, they said, and kept to herself. One of them mowed her grass to keep things looking tidy. At some point, her bank account ran dry."

https://www.cnn.com/2014/03/07/us/michigan-mummified-body-fo...

> The woman's mummified body was sitting in the back seat of her car, parked in the garage. The key was halfway in the ignition.

Truly macabre.

Roald Dahl couldn't have done it better.

It's the old joke... don't think anyone cares about you? Try missing a couple of payments...

Woman's Dead Body Lies in Flat for 35 Years

https://www.foxnews.com/story/womans-dead-body-lies-in-flat-...

How many of us live in apartments and have bills sent electronically?

Once the current generation gets old we could easily coast through life isolated without friends. We’ll all need dead man switches soon.

I'm not sure that level of "notice" gives such folks much comfort.

Decades ago I knew someone nearly homeless living in a downtown Chicago dive hotel, the kind of place you turned the bathroom light on just so the roaches would scatter before walking to the toilet.

They talked about the hotel management giving the younger and destitute tenants free months of stay in return for getting rid of the bodies and possessions of elderly tenants when they passed away.

Apparently it was somewhat common for poor elderly folks, alone in the world, to move into the hotel and have their government aid checks cashed for them by the hotel management.

By making them disappear after dying, the hotel continued to (illegally) collect the checks.

FWIW I didn't check my mail once for something like 6 months, and they just stopped delivery on it. Nobody came to check on me, that's for sure.

A man I worked with many years ago died at some time after I had left the project. He did not come in to work, and did not answer his phone. After his family in another state had been unable to reach him for some time, they prodded the employer a bit. The project manager checked and found that the man had found dead on the street not far from his apartment. Since his wallet had been stolen, the police could not identify him, and the body was held as a John Doe at the morgue.

So yes, the county police noticed at once that the man was dead, the employer almost at once that the man was missing or at least incommunicado; but putting the information together was the problem.

That's not the point though, noticing here means caring, not merely being aware of.

Not to mention tons of people have been found after weeks or months being dead without anybody noticing, so "the mailperson will notice eventually" is hardly a comfort.

When we say "no one will notice", we mean that they won't care, that they won't have to substantially alter their way of life, or even their routine to accommodate one's death.

It was a shock to me, some years ago, on leaving an office job to start a new business: I had a group of what I considered good friends, we spoke on many topics, shared lunches nearly every day, went out socially on occasions. Not one of them dropped in to my new work to see how I was getting on [the reverse was impossible, it was a closed site].

They noticed I wasn't there, but it clearly made no substantial difference to them.

Very few of us will leave a legacy that impacts beyond immediate family and friends, I think for those of us in that boat we have to come to terms with it and not let that thought cloud our enjoyment of the time we do have.

With 8 billion people the memory of good deeds quickly gets lost in the melee of daily life.

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