Basic Blackbird Bundle with 4-core IBM Power9 CPU
secure.raptorcs.com
secure.raptorcs.com
However, at $799 + 4-cores or 8-cores, the main purpose of this board is for "toy" uses. There's no way that the 4-core IBM is going to be anywhere as fast as a 16c/32t Threadripper 1950x (going for ~$450 these days btw), but it would be the cheapest machine to build for the Power9 system.
So that alone is important. The "Basic" box would be for developer machines, while the "production" machine would be 22-core, or maybe 12-core SMT8 (the "thicker" IBM design where 8-SMT is possible).
Consider this: what if you were developing for Summit? Do you want to rent supercomputer time when you're writing your code? Or do you test it out on a cheaper 4-core, $799 motherboard machine? https://www.olcf.ornl.gov/summit/
For some applications, the compute performance is secondary to that, but price always plays a role. A moderately powerful workstation that runs 100% audited code is very desirable for some uses.
I mean it really sucks that we cry for non-X86 desktops, and when someone finally delivers, we complain about price. It's just little hard to justify for something I'd basically buy as a "toy".
Compare to an Intel 16 thread CPU + motherboard with ECC RAM and the ability to address more than 64GB of RAM. You're well into Xeon parts probably in the $300-400 range just for the CPU, then to get a decent motherboard is probably another $200. So you're paying a 2x premium for this Raptor Computing offering, that's really not THAT bad of pricing!
This pricing is an order of magnitude better than some of the previous Raptor Computing POWER systems which will hopefully open up their market to a wider audience and help drive down prices in the future.
I genuinely hope this takes off, I would love to replace my primary desktop with a power system. And any way you slice it, this is just _AWESOME_.
1. All Intel and AMD CPU's are backdoored with management processors running black box software that's already had vulnerabilities. They refuse to remove the backdoors for consumer segment for probably shady reasons. These POWER CPU's have open-source firmware, OpenBMC, which is a little better on trust side. Personally, I think they're still backdoored somehow since IBM is one of NSA's longest-running partners. Still a risk reduction if we go from anyone might hit this closed software to open software anyone can analyze and improve.
https://hackaday.com/2017/12/11/what-you-need-to-know-about-...
2. People that want POWER ISA or just a RISC ISA at x86's performance. The x86 ISA is pretty horrible to some of us. It also locks you into specific patterns of execution, like its stack architecture, that can make it harder to efficiently implement alternative schemes. POWER could be more flexible for alternative designs.
2.1. PowerPC, like sold by NXP/Freescale, is still used in a lot of safety-critical fields along with sections of the embedded sector. While invisible to desktop programmers, it kept getting better and better for niches like with QorIQ CPU's for telecoms. I speculated developing on a POWER architecture for POWER-like targets might be easier somehow (idk though).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QorIQ
2.2. The separation kernels like INTEGRITY-178B were all originally designed for PowerPC boards like Curtis-Wright makes for aerospace and military. They might be easier to port in evaluated configuration to a Raptor than to x86. There are also a lot of hardware/software architectures for improving security that work better when you know what the hardware is doing in the first place and/or can modify the firmware. OpenPOWER has more potential for these designs with the main drawback being CompSci folks usually not able to afford expensive, new computers. Somebody might port an existing idea, though, that they were doing on MIPS, Leon3, ARM, etc.
2.3. The Amiga people also use PowerPC-based machines. They're willing to pay a premium to maintain their nostalgia. Wouldn't surprise me if someone ports MorphOS or something like that to these machines.
So, there's a few ideas.
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id...
Might be fun to see AmigaOS on one of these too.
Having more than 64 GB of ram will cost twice as much as the motherboard+cpu.
Those are "only" 8 threads, but I doubt the 16 thread/4 core POWER processors are much better in practice than Intel's 8 thread/4 core processors.
Sure it costs something, though.
OCuLink can turn into M.2, U.2, or a variety of SATA connectors.
More information on FlexVer: https://www.raptorengineering.com/TALOS/documentation/flexve...
> FlexVer™ is a new, owner-controlled security technology designed to safeguard critical data and applications in the event of software or hardware tampering. FlexVer™ allows a system to be provisioned in a trusted physical environment, then deployed to an untrustworthy physical location while retaining system integrity.
Having such a powerful (or at least performant), free and risc-y machine has been a dream of mine for quite some time now... If I can only find a good argument to my wife as why we need one :P
Oh nice! Almost 2x the speed of i9 for 7-Zip compression and ahead of everyone on LLVM compilation speed and Rust prime benchmarks.
> 2 Broadcom Gigabit Ethernet ports > 1 Isolated BMC Gigabit Ethernet port
What does 'isolated' mean in the context? AFAIK ethernet connections are always isolated using transformers, so I don't suppose they are talking about galvanic isolation here.
Can anyone elaborate?
I think this research was where I heard about this:
Having the port shared can save in cabling, but you trade that off for trusting some firmware to do the right thing.
Isolated ports mean that you can have one cable that goes to the BMC and only the BMC, and one that goes to the host and only the host. i.e. you place trust for isolation in the fact that two cables go to two different places, and don't involve another bit of firmware.
So if you want something with published scores on a wide variety of benchmarks that are included in CPU2017 get an Epyc or a Xeon.
Is the power9 only competitive for integer related workloads? E950 finds results on the Integer throughput list, but not the FP throughput list.
Usually the description has a CPU entry something like "Intel Xeon Gold 6148". The IBM entries have things like "3.4 - 3.8 GHz, 40 core, SLES". So if you search any of the lists for "power9" you don't find anything.
Seems like Power9 does really well on interpreters.
Most systems assume a minimal level of 3D acceleration support for desktop use. Watching video, browsing the web, etc... could suck down a lot more CPU than you're used to.
NBD if you're using it as a server, but problematic as a daily driver desktop.
On a slightly different topic, I'm not sure this push to force libre software into requiring a 3D GPU is a good idea while every 3D capable card / chip currently being made relies on proprietary firmware enforcing various forms of DRM. If at some point the already existing DRM starts being extended to protect modern 3D support (e.g consider no 4k /8k 3D allowed without DRM handshake), there is no reasonable fallback for the desktop (leaving games etc. aside); this is not a good place to be IMO.
the BMC chip (ast2500) has support for being a GPU for the host processor. It's a good old pretty dumb 2D framebuffer. Good for running an OS installer on.
Because (currently, we're working on it) boot time is more than a couple of seconds before we could bring up a discrete GPU, this connector will get you boot progress (and let you see an error) that occurs before we could fire up a PCIe GPU.
[1] https://wiki.raptorcs.com/w/images/8/89/POWER9_um_OpenPOWER_...
Some are SMT8. The ones that are supported by this motherboard are "only" SMT4 however.
I think its "OpenPOWER" chips are at least 4-threads per core.
Edit: It was a Lian-Li PC-06SX and not an 05!
> Expected to ship late Q1 2019
such low core count is making the product not that attractive - I can go with µATX MB + Xeon if I want computing power or a decent 6/8-core ARM board for smaller form factor. to just try a different ISA, I'd probably choose RISC-V to maximize my potential investment return.
Mind, I'm probably waiting for whichever gets <$500 first because I'm not necessarily in a place where I can justify the money even for an open platform, but let's not pretend that there are massive benefits to both.
This is pretty much my threshold as well, but when I actually think about these numbers and put them in perspective with regards to how much I used to spend on 486/pentium desktop computers when they were modern, and adjust those numbers for inflation, it's downright absurd that I'm not willing to spend what raptorcs is asking for a modern, open platform, in 2018 dollars.
https://www.solid-run.com/marvell-armada-family/macchiatobin...
[1] one 12kb blob: https://github.com/MarvellEmbeddedProcessors/binaries-marvel... [2] https://github.com/MarvellEmbeddedProcessors/edk2-open-platf...
The most pertinent point though is that the POWER9 will run circles around the ARM board in terms of performance, guaranteed. We're using the POWER9 as a full desktop replacement, ARM never really worked out in that role due to general performance issues / lagginess vs. the x86 boxes that were being replaced. A ~2GHz embedded ARM core isn't going to match up to a ~4GHz POWER core, at least not favorably -- you do get what you pay for!
EDIT: On further comparison the Blackbird has double the SATA ports, double the SATA speed, two PCIe Gen 4 slots (a x16 and a x8) instead of a single Gen 3 x4, and quadruple the USB 3.0 ports. Really, the Blackbird is in a different class from that ARM system; it's competing against Intel and AMD boards, not against the low end ARM offerings.
With AMD, you can fit a whole build (with an 8-core CPU, RAM, SSD and a good GPU) into $1000. Your mainboard is just ridiculously expensive. Yes, I understand that the volume is low and there was a lot of new R&D and whatnot… but it's still just a big PCB. What costs so much? Is PCIe gen 4 (that I don't need) contributing to the cost a lot?
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:PPC
Looking around, power9 seems to work fine. For software compatibility it's more a case by case scenario.
https://www.floodgap.com/software/tenfourfox/
People who use a lot of terminal apps that don't need a full-on browser or non-portable apps can use it to its fullest. Most importantly besides owner-controlled, the fact that you're getting to use, show off, and develop on a unique system nobody else in your area probably has. Let's not forget the novelty and awing people aspect of tech that might sell some of these.
https://tenfourfox.blogspot.com/2017/11/the-security-blanket...
As you'll see from the article, aside from the OS X-specific exploits on Power Macs, components capable of running platform-independent code such as Java, Flash and Office macros are probably where the biggest risk is. And, of course, web browsers. Unfortunately these are some of the most common types of applications for people to run and very few are maintained on Power Macs anymore.
The good news with Talos and other P9 systems is that they're now running supported and maintained software and most of the applications people want to use "just work," so that problem goes away.
"components capable of running platform-independent code such as Java, Flash and Office macros are probably where the biggest risk is."
I'll add the risk of those components mostly has to do with their complexity, use of unsafe language, and security not being a concern in design. It's true there's gonna be exploits, esp on legacy systems. The crowd I was talking about was mainly concerned with malware forcing reinstalls, etc. That attackers mostly target high-ROI platforms meant they didnt have that problem any more. Although I suggested Ubuntu, they're Mac people with Mac apps they want to keep.
"The good news with Talos and other P9 systems is that they're now running supported and maintained software and most of the applications people want to use "just work," so that problem goes away."
Exactly. On top of it, many techniques for mitigating vulnerabilities have a performance cost. Esp overflow checking and microkernels. The extra speed of POWER9's might turn that from unbearable to acceptable. For me, Im fine with being stuck at Core Duo 2 performance for most tasks cuz my now-deadish, 9-yr-old laptop was working fine. If I get same performance but more security/control, that's a net gain. If it's faster, too, then that's even better. Similar argument might apply to those of you that port risky PPC software to it.
But what I learned from Classilla I used to port TenFourFox, and what I learned from TenFourFox I'm using to write a POWER9 JIT for Firefox and keep the build working. So it's all incremental.
If people want choice in computing, we need to step up and support these alternatives or we'll reap exactly what we've sown.
Power9 just has relatively weak vector units: only 128-bit. (Even AMD Threadripper has support for 256-bit. Power9 128-bit is executed per super-slice, so its really 2x64-bit, to compare against AMD's 2x128-bit support) Otherwise, its throughput is downright insane. 6-issues per clock (Skylake only has 6 if its in the uOp cache: otherwise the decoder only pushes 4 uOps), 10MB of L3 per pair of cores. That's 20MB of L3 on the 4-core, and 110MB of L3 cache on the 22-core.
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As far as price/performance goes, the 18-core / 72-thread chip seems best. But the 4-core / 16-thread or 8-core / 32-thread chips aren't bad, as far as I can tell.
The main issue is that most compute-heavy code these days use those vector units (2x128 on AMD, 2x256 on Intel). But if you got a big GPU for SIMD / vectorized ops, then that disadvantage kinda goes away. GPUs are way fatter than Intel or AMD.
The other issue is that AMD is offering cores at stupidly low prices. AMD Threadripper and EPYC are the machines to look at for raw CPU power these days. But I'd argue that the 18-core Power9 ($1,050) is at a good price/performance level. If you can find any application that benefits from the stupid-high 90MB of L3 cache on the 18-core, then you're more or less golden.
I'd bet that databases love that L3 cache.
phoronix.com just published some Power9 vs. Xeon vs Epyc benchmarks[1]. It is actually not on par with Xeon/Epyc. also note that the motherboard used by those Power9 has a price tag of $2499, when a dual socket LGA3647 motherboard from a first tier vendor can be purchased at $400 delivered.
[1] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=power9-x...
On the few tests which don't have anything to do with vector units, Power9 does incredibly well. See 7-Zip Compression, Stockfish, Fhourstones, LLVM compiles. Power9 is very, very far ahead of the game here.
When vector units (ie: OpenMP or intrinsics) are involved: such as Parboil, Gimp, x264, Rodinia, etc. etc. the Power9 does very poorly.
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Something else I've noticed: Power9 has a lot of latency behind its units: it is always 2-cycles or 3-cycles of latency (while EPYC or Skylake have many operations with 1-cycle of latency, like add or subtract). Power9 relies upon instruction-level parallelism to get things done.
So there are a few cases like the Rust Mandelbrot benchmark, which surely hits that latency problem, while the Rustlang Prime benchmark shows off the ILP goodness the system offers.