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Comment by dawnerd | Hacker News Reader

I do a lot of Google Maps moderation and there’s a ton of bad changes being attempted every day. Honestly I’m amazed Google doesn’t bother to vet anyone really. Becoming a local guide is easy and not that difficult for a spam group to create enough fake accounts to get things pushed through. Just last night I caught the local Target that was reclassified as a “prison”.

What Google needs to do is lock information for verified businesses or businesses they’re directly scraping from the Corp location pages.

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Why do you work for Google for no pay? OpenStreetMap always needs work. Help the community.

Honestly for me it boils down to Google maps being just a superior app. It's not even the amount of data in itself(which is a lot already tbh) but just the app being better. I don't think I have seen a decent OSM app yet.

OsmAnd is far superior to Google Maps in my opinion, especially for backcountry offline navigation. It's one of the most important apps when traveling abroad or when cell service is spotty. Google Maps is basically useless in rural South America, for example... and OSM is actually more up to date than Google Maps when it comes to river crossings, etc... and POI data is available for offline use. Google Maps can't even do offline navigation and rerouting.

Is that the ugly one where you have to download huge regions to offline just to look at where you at right now?

Huge? Not so much... OsmAnd uses vector maps, which are very small, compared to "offline" Google Maps tiles.

A couple hundred megabytes for an entire country's road system is not "huge".

Like the mobile app itself, Google Maps offline maps are also vector based.

Then how come an offline region of a national park in Google Maps is a larger download than the entire state in OsmAnd?

A couple hundred megabytes to show me a map of where I am right now is huge.

You can use "online" maps and it only downloads the visible region on your screen. It's not a few hundred megs "just to show you where you are" that is utter nonsense.

How about you just actually use the app before you make baseless accusations.

Well I asked whether this is the app with only offline mode, which would imply large downloads. You said that offline mode is so small that it doesn't matter. I didn't make any 'baseless accusation', I am working off your reply, but still without any 'accusation' at all.

How about actually reading people's messages before claiming they're making 'baseless accusations'.

No, it's the one that supports both local and online maps.

Backcountry offline navigation in rural South America is far from what most people are using a mapping app for, though.

> Google Maps can't even do offline navigation and rerouting.

The iOS Google maps does offline navigation. I used it just this weekend on a long distance trip. You have to download the data beforehand, but if you have downloaded the data for a region you can search and route to any destination you want.

How do you tell it to download a specific location beforehand?

I'm not sure how to do in the iOS one but I ma sure it's possible because my partner does it. For Android you just need to go in the side panel and there is a Offline Maps button.

OK Thanks

It can absolutely do offline navigation - you have to tell it to download an area offline, but if you start navigation for a route that passes through out-of-the-way areas it'll prompt you to download the offline maps.

> Google Maps can't even do offline navigation and rerouting

Yes it can, you have to download the area in advance but I use it offline all the time as I have no mobile data plan on my phone.

The whole feature is clearly an afterthought. There are so many issues with it you're much better off getting another app that's designed for offline navigation.

How does OsmAnd handle traffic? For my commute I religiously use Google Maps to learn about accidents or other blockages to make my trip shorter. Can I do the same thing with OsmAnd? (I'm thinking no, but I'm unfamiliar with how traffic data really works, so I'm open to learning that I'm wrong.)

Let me know when it gets a trip planner and has a mapmaker alternative.

Both Osmand (osmand.net) and MAPS.ME (maps.me) are mobile applications with a trip planner. To make maps I recommend uMap (umap.openstreetmap.fr) which is superior to the Google Maps equivalent features in every aspects.

Cool, is there a trip planner on desktop? I primarily commute using public transportation so Google's integration with that is super cool and I'd really love something free (as in freedom) that does the same.

The Google maps app is quite slow and bloated now on my Galaxy S6 and Nexus 5X. I think OSM has a great opportunity to overtake them on the "app being better" metric. Too many features have been crammed into Maps.

Maps.me is great and better than Google.

Google Maps is a great app, but the data is sometimes lacking. Open Street Maps is far more accurate at bicycle routes in and around Amsterdam, for example. Google regularly misses optimal routes.

> Honestly for me it boils down to Google maps being just a superior app.

And it shall remain that way as long as people work for free on a proprietary Google Web 2.0/3.0 application whereas they could do the same work for a FOSS licensed alternative (such as OSM).

It benefits other Google Maps users.

Is it actively bad to moderate Google Maps?

Exactly—OpenStreetMap would get more contributions if they had more users. People want to help others, but it's not clear how contributing to OSM does this when so few people use their website.

This is a chicken and egg problem. If you want to support the ideas OSM represents your only course of action is to do so. Complaining that people aren't using it is a defeatist attitude.

And in any case, a lot more people benefit from OSM than you know. Consider that it's not just a website with a map on it, but a downloadable map you can do whatever you want with. There's no other free & public source on geography that even comes close to OSM's detail. And OSM is genuinely better for end-users than Google Maps in many respects.

I'm not complaining, just trying to explain why people don't want to contribute as much. You get the feeling you're doing work for an organization rather than improving a product for everyone. Some people are into that, but I think more people would contribute if OSM had a more usable product.

As opposed to doing unpaid volunteer work for megacorporation Google?

With OpenStreetMap the data I contribute is placed under a free software license and can be reused by anyone; I actively contribute to a community resource, rather than a proprietary database increasing some company's shareholder value.

I always try to submit my changes to both. I would like OSM to be great but I find myself using Google Maps as well, it's good for me for both to be up to date.

Google maps copies a ton of data from open street map. The other day my oddly specific edit on OSM was on Google maps within 72 hours.

Google doesn't seem to do that in my area (OpenStreetMap is way more accurate and up-to-date). I'd be surprised if they do because of the legal consequences for tainting their database with unlicensed data.

Did you set up a follow up test to find out if this wasn't just a chance occurrence? For example, by introducing a feature that exists (some unmapped named side street), but subtly misspelled on purpose.

When I signed up for OSM I checked the box that I consider my contribution to be public domain. I'm sure google checks for that and only imports the public domain changes.

Since my only goal was to get friends to my house instead of some corn field a mile away I accomplished my goals. I can see how someone who makes a lot of contributions would want otherwise, but my goals are different.

It's way easier to contribute to Google Maps, and Maps blows OSM out of the water in features, usability, and data quality.

OSM != osm.org

Just as an FYI, data quality varies heavily based on location. Here in Lübeck, Germany, Google sucks and amongst other things shows non existant streets while OSM is simply correct.

In Pretoria, South Africa, OSM has information outdated by several years while Google does not.

I think SA had a big bulk import a few years back. Unfortunately while this got the map off the ground quickly it fails to build a strong local mapping community.

It's not quite "pay", but Google have a notion of "points" to reward contributors, who they call local guides: https://support.google.com/local-guides/answer/6225851?hl=en

Anecdotally it's mostly credits towards Google's own products, free storage, etc, but also freebies like subscriptions to the NYTimes Crossword, etc -- at least at the lower levels.

Never underestimate the power of fake internet points.

They're not fake if they can be redeemed for things that would otherwise cost real money.

Am I the only one who thinks that “Local Guides” is a needlessly misleading name? Before I looked up what it meant, I assumed that reviews tagged with “Local Guide” were actually written by locals, when in fact the author may just as well live on the other side of the world.

It prompts you to review/update info on locations that you've been to recently. Although you can do so for other locations as well.

You're doing work for google, so you can invest in google products more?

I usually get a free movie ticket every month or so.

Everyone keeps thinking it’s like a full time job but really it’s a couple minutes whenever I go to post a review.

> Anecdotally it's mostly credits towards Google's own products, free storage, etc

Not anymore. I finally reached tier 5, but there was no reward no free storage. I haven't received anything. It's B.S.

The tier system changed recently, it's a 10 tier system now, and tier 5 is much easier to get.

I still don't see any tangible rewards. There's nothing listed about tier rewards. The only reward I've seen is getting a useless sticker next to your name.

At high enough levels you also get invited to exclusive Google Guide meetups.

Google, Amazon and Apple to an extend are all making money by exploiting the internet community spirit.

Every time Amazon sends an email for you to “review” the product, they are asking for free labour :-)

Same with google here.

How can I contribute to OpenStreetMap? (currently spending a few 5-15 minutes chunks of time on Google Maps)

Just go to https://www.openstreetmap.org/ and create an account, then click on the Edit button and start editing :).

Thanks! For some reason I though I had to download an app and upload and download xml files. (I think I did that a number of years ago but that might have been something else.)

You can do that. There are many different editors for OSM depending on your use case and level of experience. I use josm which is the more advanced option.

Found no Edit button but at least I was able to report a misplaced feature.

Also I realized OSM has got the house numbers in my street correct, contrary to Google Maps.

So point me to where OSM has an official app where I can verify edits with a few taps. Last time I tried to edit OSM there was quite the process and a complex set of rules.

Possibly an effort keep you from scamming people by changing bank contact info?

It's beneficial to the small businesses in my area whom I would like to succeed. I do it to help the meadery down the street, not Google.

Google already let's people claim their maps listing via Google My Business. I would be shocked if they couldn't lock edits, or at the very least review them.

I hope Google uses their Duplex tech to review phone number changes though, should be easy to call the existing phone number a few times.

On the contrary, if someone claims your business, it's extremely difficult to undo. My mother has this issue with her 1 person LLC - some random person claimed it, and the reclaiming flow was busted last I checked

When I did this a long time ago, I received a postcard to the address on the website, contain a PIN code that I needed to input on line. Don't they do that any more?

Could you change the address (as described in this article) then claim it?

Not sure, the issue I hit was that it was legitimately broken when I tried. 500 responses or some such from an API call

I recently changed a major shopping centre in my state from "Foo Market - The Shopping Capital" to "Foo Market" and 48h later it was approved. I'm not sure which one google would consider more correct and would assume changing a phone number might go through a few more checks but it was surprising.

Also reminds me about the taxi lost and found issue [1].

[1] https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/76-lost-in-a-cab

Really all they do is ask a group of local guides if the title is correct. If a certain threshold say yes the change applies. I’m sure they have some other filters in place though.

Claiming your listing does not let you lock it in the sense you are thinking of. It's also not very difficult to claim a listing that was already claimed by somebody else -- they will get an email asking them to challenge your claim, and if they don't respond you can take over the listing. That's how it worked a year ago, which is the last time I used it.

You can review edits in Google My Business. But Google will sometimes import a bunch of data from a data broker or some other source and bulk update your listings, which you then need to go in and edit again.

Google My Business is also very, very strict about rejecting addresses it does not think are real, which is a bit of a problem for businesses on newly constructed roads, or roads that were recently renamed. If their address normalizer rejects it, you just can't use it.

When you have a problem, Google's customer service is really, really bad.

This could explain why the scammers were able to claim the bank listings. The two banks mentioned in the article are nationalised(govt) banks, notorious for unprofessional work-culture. (I have an account at SBI) I wouldn't be surprised if the emails from Google went to black hole email addresses, giving scammers ownership of the listings.

I had randomly received a bunch of postcards for incorrect google maps address confirmations recently at my office. Made me stop for a sec and think about how that system works, and the why/ who would try to send out fake requests.

Does Google pay you to moderate? What is the user incentive to commit hours of time to a 3rd party commercial enterprise?

No, Google doesn't pay you when you do work for them as a "Local Guide".

That means that there is little incentive to stop people who are paid by entities that have vested interest in manipulating Google Maps information.

Stack overflow is pretty popular. Although their recent attempt to "be nice to new users" (which wasn't necessary before, and coincides with the quality of answers rapidly approaching that of Quota) suggests that this won't last forever.

> coincides with the quality of answers rapidly approaching that of Quota

Do you perceive Quora to have higher or lower quality answers? I'm having trouble parsing what you meant to say.

Pretty sure s/he means lower

Stackoverflow data is free for anyone to download and reuse. Gmaps is a proprietary dataset. Helping people on SO also feels a lot less like working for a tech megacorp for free.

> (which wasn't necessary before, and coincides with the quality of answers rapidly approaching that of Quota)

It was absolutely necessary. It isn't a "meme" that SO community has hostile users. I hand out a lot of votes when browsing SO because so f many people don't really deserve the downvotes.

No, it's part of the local guides program they run. They'll show you pending edits and you just approve or decline. I don't spent too much time on it, only when I notice and am in the app.

And sometimes fixes to incorrect information get rejected. My first edit was to correct an error where a restaurant had the website of a nearby shop listed. The website contained no information whatsoever about the restaurant (to my frustration, because I wanted to eat there).

My removal of the website got rejected. I think I needed to offer proof of some sort.

Adding info is easier: my second edit was adding opening hours to a shop. No proof needed. My submitted hours were not the official opening hours, because the shop always opens 15 minutes too late.

I am curious what the 3rd party bounty/revenue model is & if fixing/locking edits to verified owners would inversely affect G's & 3rds revenues. I ask b/c every licensed biz owner I know who have not utilized Goog's biz profile service(?) get dozens of calls a week to "activate your Google account NOW!". Quite off-putting & a very significant waste of their(the owners') time deflecting the onslaught.

In turn, I'm amazed that people put effort into databases that are owned by companies. Wouldn't it be much more fulfilling to do the same work for an open database, such as open street maps?

Do they do a better job combating this style of fraud?

The dominant platform is getting all the attacks. OSM is a huge success on many levels, but unlike Google maps it hasn't become "the phone book" (and never tried to)

But doesn't this imply that it is not a good investment of time to get your name/business in there?

> In turn, I'm amazed that people put effort into databases that are owned by companies. Wouldn't it be much more fulfilling to do the same work for an open database, such as open street maps?

There are tons of open source developers who contribute to code bases that require copyright assignment. They probably do it for the same reasons:

* It's personally useful

* It's useful to a lot of people

* It's (comparatively) easy to do

* It's rewarding in some other way

* They're naive

Most companies require a CLA. A CLA is not automatically equivalent to handing over copyright to the contribution.

In some cases, the company is asking for a license to use+distribute the code (which IMHO should be implied by open a PR in the first place).

For example, you can read Square’s CLA here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeRVQ35-gq2vdSxD1kd...

GPL skips the issue due to the PR having to be GPL to even be published. AGPL might be an issue though? Would it need to be explicit? Still, GPL.

I use the Google Maps GPS to navigate, and have contributed by moving a couple of locations that had misleading coordinates (for example, out in a field instead of pointing to the parking log). Purely for my own convenience next time I'm navigating to these place.

They probably like that it is useful to a ton of people. Work on an open steet database - how many people will see and appreciate your work?

Many of those are just looking for free advertising really as well - in particular if they are a retail front or real estate for sale or let. Just enter in this information you want to give to customers to get a free advertising? Any sane business says yes please.

> What Google needs to do is lock information for verified businesses or businesses they’re directly scraping from the Corp location pages.

Here are a few problems with that:

1) Businesses also have incentives to spam by adding lots of vaguely-related words to names, categories and description.

2) Businesses forget that they claimed the listing, and so stale info remains locked for too long.

> What Google needs to do is lock information for verified businesses or businesses they’re directly scraping from the Corp location pages.

If they do that and the correct information changes without them updating, they're (rightfully) going to get sued by those businesses. By having it editable by anyone, they avoid that, even if it results in the information being wrong more often.

Proper ways to deal with this would involve employing actual human beings for moderation, for filling in / updating the map data, or for providing support and a verification process to businesses trying to correct their data.

All three of these solutions cost more money than the status quo and are things that Google doesn't really do anywhere, so I doubt this is going to get better anytime soon.

They'd get sued? Really?

GDPR principle d if the business is a person? (I don't actually know)

How can a business be a person?

When the court says it is... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood

https://www.npr.org/2014/07/28/335288388/when-did-companies-...

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2018/03/corpora...

The parent was talking about GDPR, so presumably Europe.

Corporate personhood isn't only an American invention. The German constitution explicitly grants fundamental rights to "artificial persons". The Italian constitution explicitly calls out trade unions as legal persons.

What if my business is "John Doe, Independent Barrister"?

GDPR data protection rules apply to natural persons, aka data subjects.

https://gdpr-info.eu/art-4-gdpr/

Imagine I am "John Doe, Independent Barrister" and that's my office.

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