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Comment by ultim8k | Hacker News Reader

Why do people still live there (apart from those who cannot move)?

Probably because the regime doesn't actively affect most people's lives much more than a regular government. It's just people who speak out or act out that get oppressed.

This is just me assuming, but is guess that China is OK for quiet, well behaved unquestioning citizens.

The social credit score goes way beyond speaking out. It touches all the minor infractions, speeding tickets, jaywalking, not paying your rent or other debt on time, etc.

This has only just been implemented though, so we've yet to see the reaction of the populace.

Parts of it are already in place. You can listen to this Planet Money episode #871 from last month where they interview a guy that has his mug displayed on a billboard and people hear a warning message when they call his phone, because he couldn't repay a loan.

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/10/26/661163105/epis...

Where should 1.4bn go? Can they severe family ties that easily? Do they speak another language? Do they have the money for it? And more importantly, do they care that much? I think there are a fair big number of reasons why one wouldn't want to leave their homeland.

Others ask themselves the same about the US, or Germany, or Russia. It's easy to paint a picture that makes one wonder why anyone would ever stay there. And the answer to why is revealed when you peek behind the canvas that portrays these horrible places.

Germany? It has the best reputation of all countries in the world right now (https://www.lonelyplanet.com/news/2017/11/22/germany-best-re...).

Yes, and I understand why - I love living there; but there's also (luckily not many) people who think the streets are filled with beating, raping illegal immigrants who were invited by politicians to live off welfare paid by the hard working citizen.

If we don't have first hand experiences, we rely on second hand information to get a picture of a situation. And depending on where we get the information from (i.e. which media we consume), it may deviate from reality, or suggest a situation that doesn't reflect reality because it focuses on few, individual aspects or events.

So every time I don't understand why people behave the way they do, I have to question my understanding of the situation before I can question the people's behavior.

Those lists are way to generic when thinking about where to live as in the end it's about your individual priorities. Germany has good things, but living here is definitely not for everyone.

> right now

> 22 November 2017

Also: https://www.google.com.sg/search?q=germany&source=lnms&tbm=n...

Because not all societies enshrine individual freedom as their primary value. China has historically valued orderliness, collective well-being, and personal sacrifice. This sucks from a Western perspective, but it also means that a great many of the problems the West faces will never manifest in China.

There are very few absolute wrongs in the world and it's not clear that this would be one of them.

> orderliness, collective well-being, and personal sacrifice

I don't know, most Chinese people I've met are at least as selfish as the average Westerner, often more (and let's not even begin about the stereotypical "I don't care about anything" 60 year old Chinese tourist). I'm no expert, but while surely many Chinese rulers have emphasized these values, I'm not convinced that the population ever cared much about them.

They're a splendid list of values to drum up, though, if you're the one whose boot indefinitely stamps on your subordinates' collective faces.

I'm not sure how bringing up personal experiences and racial stereotypes contributes to any conversation, especially when it is about the entire population of China (1.4 billion), its culture, and its history.

I highly recommend reading about the mandate of heaven[0]. While not particularly relevant anymore, it is important context to the cultural attitudes of your average Chinese citizen.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_of_Heaven

To be fair, there's often a significant contrast between the way someone behaves and the societal values they espouse. In some cases they almost seem to be anti-correlated.

> China has historically valued orderliness, collective well-being, and personal sacrifice. This sucks from a Western perspective, but it also means that a great many of the problems the West faces will never manifest in China.

Like what?

Chinese value personal freedom and do enjoy quite a lot of it, actually. In fact, I'd say that Chinese society allows more individuality and freedom than e.g. Japanese society.

Definitely agree. Japan’s social and cultural norms are a lot more stifling than China’s. But both are more stifling than the America’s.

Disclaimer: I'm Greek and I've left my country. I'm visiting home all the time and yes I still love my friends and family. I love the place and the lifestyle but I don't give a crap for the country.

> I love the place and the lifestyle but I don't give a crap for the country

This kind of attitude is why some countries' economies and social systems turn to crap, ya know...

Is that really so bad if said country hasn't done anything for you? People are not born with the duty to support "their" country in any way possible even if said country has not supported them.

Not sure you can compare the mess that Greece currently is with the prosperity of living in China (with the drawback of surrendering your privacy).

I have been to Greece and I have friends who live there, and I can say that living in Greece is normal. I am really not sure why would claim that living in Greece is significantly worse than living in China or any other western country.

Maybe it's good now but it certainly wasn't a great place to live during the crisis and OP left for a reason.

> it certainly wasn't a great place to live during the crisis

No, not really.

You've gotta look at things in perspective. When you live in China what you get is basically 0 crime, a very rapidly developing economy with huge potential for all sorts of entrepreneurship, extremely cheap cost of living with heavy subsidies for costs like utilities, and a generally pretty peaceful and pleasant place. Biggest practical problem is fake or knockoff everything from condoms to eggs. Yip fake eggs are really a thing. What you don't get is a place where it'd be a great idea to speak excessively harshly of pretty much anybody in public, or start trying to protest in ways that would disrupt the normal flow of life.

Generally I think it's a great idea to have a diverse and multi-polar world. I have no idea whether the Chinese system of government is a good idea or an idea that will lead to the implosion of their society. And really I can say the exact same of the current system of government in the United States. By having various nations trialing out radically different systems, we can hope to see which is ultimately more effective by measuring varying sorts of results over time - and then learn and improve from our successes and failures.

> I have no idea whether the Chinese system of government is a good idea or an idea that will lead to the implosion of their society.

So if it doesn't implode, that makes it a good idea?

China has gone from an undeveloped nation where people were literally starving to death by the tens of millions, to one of the most powerful and economically successful nations in the world. And they did this all in less than a single human lifetime. This trajectory of success is unlike anything we've seen anytime in human history excluding growth from military expansion. They're greatly outpacing the United States' rise from backwoods colonies to the most powerful nation in the world, and they've even exceeded reconstruction era Japan. If they can maintain even a fraction of their current momentum and trajectory, China is well on the path to becoming the most powerful nation in the world. And that role is implicitly accompanied by the privilege of being able to heavily influence the path of our entire world and, consequently, species.

So yes I think it's completely absurd to suggest they've achieved anything short of remarkable success with their system of development and governance. But the question is what will happen in the process of this success and whether the path they've taken is sustainable or not. Is their growth indeed on the current exponential it seems to be on? A sigmoid where this wildly exponential growth will start to level off, or perhaps even something like a bell curve where the rapid ascent will be met by a comparably rapid decline?

I am more hesitant to attribute this success to the success of their government system. After all, when the government exhibited more totalitarian control, tragedies like the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution occurred, that killed a generation of progress and more. It was after Deng's restructuring and China's opening up of its markets that it saw unprecedented growth. But what I'm seeing right now is totalitarian elements being reintroduced into governance---thus I don't share your unbridled faith that there is something essentially right with China's current governance.

I'd debate the degree to which China opened its markets, but that's an aside -- I mostly agree with you in theory. But there's one nagging issue. Countless other developing nations that have done things such as open their markets and have had nowhere near the success to show for it that China has.

I think unforeseen consequences, both negative and positive, are a major part of how societies develop. We in general have nowhere near the foresight we like to image we do. And in particular, I'm more inclined to attribute China's success to their systems in large part because the only thing as large an outlier as their success is their governmental system. And the timing also fits quite well. If it's just e.g. open markets then it leaves you having to explain why China is thriving whereas most other developing nations following the WTO playbook have relatively little to show for it.

IMO China's success is quite belated. Much of the world was recovering from WWII with booming economies, and Asian economies especially saw rapid growth, hence the four Asian tigers as well. To the CCP's credit, they have managed to hold China together and given it stability when many have tried and failed for a century, and this I think is the greatest reason for China's success.

It's not possible to identify a unifying thread among countries that try to follow the WTO playbook that fail. Some fail because a totalitarian minority control a valuable natural resource. Some fail because of irreconcilable differences between nations (races) sharing the same political state. Still there are many other reasons.

> When you live in China what you get is basically 0 crime

This is far, far from the truth.

But closer to the truth than not.

How so?

They live a good life. The Chinese friends I have are not bothered by this and support their government, however crazy that may seem to us in the West.

Money and lifestyle.

Daily life is no different than in the West. Don't believe all that you see in the media.

Lots of western expats live in China because they have economic opportunities they don’t have access to in their home countries. Says something about the state of western world when so many young people go to China to climb the career ladder. Social mobility in western countries is almost non existent.

Ah the new FILTH aka Failed in London, Try Hong Kong

Well, the UK itself seems to be "Failing in London" these days. ;)

Well the compete omnishambles that the current generation of politicians seem to have created I would probably agree with you

Most people on HN are software engineers. We are lucky that given our skills we can make it anywhere (some of the hackers around here are very brilliant and can basically live and work anywhere they fancy). But there’s a lot of professions outside of software bubble (more traditional jobs) that are not providing opportunities they once did and with AI and automation it’s going to get worse.

And over here in my university in the UK half of the students are Chinese and most of the ones that I talked with plan to continue their studies and careers here and in the US. What you claim goes both ways.

It’s hard to enumerate but I meet tons of young professionals in Asia who studied in UK/Australia/US/Canada and came back for better jobs and prospects. It would be interesting to make some study to get some numbers on how many stay overseas and how many come back, and what are their careers like 10 years down the line.

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