Comment by _zskd | Hacker News Reader

Comment by _zskd | Hacker News Reader

I've responded to this sort if inquiry before, so forgive the copy-pasta:

>> You sound like you have anxiety problems. What have you done to address your anti-social tendencies? Are you going to a therapist? Do you expect a fairy to fly into your house and magic them away? What job do you think exists where you don't need these skills?

>> Having a therapist does not mean you are crazy, and you don't NEED to be crazy to have one. It means you have having a neutral person who helps you track and set goals, track your moods, and help you process work relationships and events. Michael Jordan has a coach, brain workers have therapists. ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18277170 )

One thing I want to make clear is that this is not going to go away without actual effort and planning on your part.

I would recommend going to a therapist and having them help you process your social interactions and set goals for improving yourself. Which, overall, is what a therapist does. Way more than the cliche "Now let's talk about your father..."

A lot of good information in here, as well. Read some books, it's good for you! It makes you smarter! People have taken time to write them for the last thousand years for a reason!

You can spare the time away from social media to read a book, I promise. And the sense of achievement you get from finishing a book feels great.

- "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is a must-read.

- "Getting to Yes" is another excellent book about workplace conflict resolution.

- There are a ton of books about emotional intelligence. Find one that sounds interesting to you and read it.

I'll also recommend "Deep Work" and "Smarter, Faster, Better" for more general workplace productivity management, but feel free to sleep on those if you feel like it.

> "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is a must-read

I'm sorry - this advice, and most of your comment, is bad advice.

I struggled with social anxiety for 10 or 15 years before I "cured" myself, and advice like this is what buried me. Reading books and going to a therapist can supplement your efforts, but if that's your main approach you're going to waste years - and when you talk, you're going to sound like a robot attempting to be human.

Which, believe me, is much worse than your (OP) presumably current state of looking like an awkward mute.

HTWFAIP is like the "cold showers" of social anxiety advice. I'm confident most people who recommend this book (which is literally everyone) haven't actually read it. It's popular advice because it's popular advice, not because it's actually useful.

Dale Carnegie's books were meant for everyday corporate workers to advance their workplace and sales communication skills - not for socially awkward developers who lack base social cues. Not only that, it was in a time with completely different social nuances - unless you really want to be an idiot carrying around a notebook of everyone's birthdays and asking questions 80% of the time your mouth opens.

Social anxiety isn't cured by reading books on emotional intelligence and deep diving into the way you say things. Most self-professed "introverts", particularly developers, spent most of their lives playing video games and sitting indoors. They're not well-rounded people in the least.

When you start slowly morphing your life to be more well rounded - taking part in group activities, getting hobbies, physical activity, etc. the social stuff takes care of itself. Your goal shouldn't be to excel at small talk - your goal should be to get to the point where your life is so cool you don't give a crap how you interact socially.

Burying your head in books and overanalyzing your social interactions isn't going to solve your social anxiety. Go play soccer.

Maybe you could write more than three words about your experience and what positive suggestions you have for OP (ie. not "here's what bad advice" and instead "here is some good advice")

Was soccer really the thing that helped you?

I agree with your criticism, but I'm going to add that I think the parent is correct. The thing that helped me the most was joining rec sports, meeting people through that, and socializing a lot. This took years, but I eventually got better at interacting with people. I think the best plan is to find a hobby that involves other people and do it a lot. Invest in learning skills like listening to people, telling stories well, playing party games and joking around with people. The biggest thing it that it takes years. Managing social anxiety is easier when you are better at socializing. That way you get anxious but then realize you know what to do and can push through from repetition. Just like public speaking and stage fright.

> I'm sorry - this advice, and most of your comment, is bad advice.

I am diagnosed bipolar and ADHD, but meh I don't really care that much about labels.

What helped me become stable and happy is going to a therapist. What helped me succeed in the workplace is reading books and applying what I learned.

> Burying your head in books and overanalyzing your social interactions isn't going to solve your social anxiety. Go play soccer.

Not everyone is able to play soccer, or naturally athletic. And honestly it comes off as very "pull yourself up by your bootstraps, bro." So fine. You hate therapists and cured yourself. Congratulations. I'm just saying what works for me.

HOWEVER, I strongly agree with your assertion that "introverts" tend to be stuck in their ways. Branching out and trying new activities, joining clubs, and being physically fit are extremely important to a person's mental health. Having more interests other than video games, anime, and internet culture goes a LONG WAY in having better social interactions with people.

> and applying what I learned

This is a big part of it. This sort of improves with practice, but can also decay from lack of use. For me, I've found that regularly putting myself in a position where I talk to people I don't know helps a lot.

I came to say the same about Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People." His teachings are aimed at being a better salesperson and you should treat it as such. Taking it as self-help advice is going to lead to frustration. (As a guide to sales, it has mostly evergreen, if hokey, advice. It was first published in 1936, after all.)

I don't know if reading a book will fix everything in this situation, but if you really want one, get closer to the subject with "Secrets to Winning Office Politics" by Marie McIntyre.

>Burying your head in books and overanalyzing your social interactions isn't going to solve your social anxiety. Go play soccer.

If yours had been the parent comment, I would have responded with:

>I'm sorry - this advice, and most of your comment, is bad advice.

Your approach is the approach that is the "usual" approach that friends and family suggest - and in my experience, it often fails. In fact, I would wager most introverts have already gone that route (be it voluntarily or involuntarily).

>Most self-professed "introverts", particularly developers, spent most of their lives playing video games and sitting indoors. They're not well-rounded people in the least.

I hate to use strong language, but this is ridiculous. Most professors are introverts, for example - and most did not play video games. (Not to put too much stock in Myers-Briggs, but INTJ, while being amongst the least common types, is the most represented in academia).

That's not to take away from the authenticity of your experience. But what works for you won't work for everyone. Perhaps not even most people.

Can't upvote this enough. Treating your social aversion like an immutable feature is ridiculous.

If we had a dev who's bad at coding but good at other tasks, what would we do, say that they're just innately untalented or that they need practice?

The fact of the matter is that devs are allowed to be complacent about social behavior through most of the social groups we run in and through our work. We're seen as antisocial because it's a muscle we don't flex.

> What job do you think exists where you don't need these skills?

These jobs do exist. Data entry, library clerk, trucker, for three. These are basically asocial.

Also, there are jobs where—despite being "social" in the sense of requiring collaboration—this collaboration is structured and formalized, such that you just have to "do your part" without any room for getting to know anyone. For example, line cooks, orchestra members, and, of course, soldiers.

I want to address a deeper assumption you've made here, though. You're making it seem like there are two types of people—people who have "solved" their problems (probably through therapy), and people who just "have" the problem and don't know what to do.

But you know what? Social anxiety disorder (as opposed to an environmentally-induced social phobia) isn't something you can "solve." It's something you manage. And getting a job that's less social—or being less social in other aspects of life—is exactly one of the management strategies that a therapist will recommend.

In the words of my girlfriend's psychiatrist:

> As a sufferer of social anxiety, you only have so much social energy, so much willpower that you can dedicate to this task each day. You might be able to overcome a few obstacles successfully, but at some point you'll deplete your reserve of self-confidence, and the next time you attempt to interact with someone, you'll begin to spiral. This creates—and reinforces—a low self-evaluation of your social abilities, a dislike of socializing, and a sense of learned helplessness.

> So, don't do that! Limit your exposure to social stimuli down to an amount you can handle each day, without becoming flustered. Hopefully you will be able to work your way up, but it's okay if that takes a very long time. Choose one part of your life you want to work on becoming more social in—work, romantic relationships, family, hobbies. In all other aspects of your life, restrict the amount of social contact, to decrease the likelihood of any "emergency expenses" of your social willpower popping up from those directions. You want to feel in control of social interactions—and the first step to doing that is to stop having scary, uncontrolled, overwhelming social interactions! Prune your life back to just the simple ones, and build up from there.

> These jobs do exist. Data entry, library clerk, trucker, for three. These are basically asocial.

I've been a librarian for 20 years. It's basically a combo of non-profit retail and fundraising. Unless you're an academic cataloger, asocial people don't last long in libraries.

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