I just don't understand how so many people in the HN community, who are so vocal about privacy, turn around and use Chrome.
Don't feed the beast.
Don't feed the beast.
Little Rant Although, I have looked at some of the other forks. What I find more depressing is how few up to date browser engines exist. It's a sign that web standards are getting too complicated. We already going to have a 3rd version HTTP as well... Both HTTP/2 and potential HTTP/3 are based off of work from google. Those protocols are a lot more complicated than HTTP. So it's much harder for a small group to implement them. That's just the protocol layer. Let alone JS, HTML, CSS, and all the other little things. It's like big companies keep bloating the standards. The result is the browser is probably one more complicated pieces of software regularly use.
What ever happened to "KISS".
Quantum is still not fast enough with many pages I use, I bet most devs do not test on firefox anymore and I've found FF unusable unless you use a 4 core machine, otherwise you get many random pauses here and there.
So my choice is chrome or safari. Safari is not customizable enough for me so chrome it is.
Most Google sites are faster than Firefox (big surprise /s) but most everything else is the same or slower. I thought Chrome was supposed to be fast, it feels like a turd.
I have a Yoga 2 (4 years old) and my laptop fan revs up like a harrier jump jet whenever I load Chrome. Firefox only manages to make it purr loudly.
Is there precedent for standards significantly simplifying over time, or do they always tend to get more and more complex?
HTML5 rather than XHTML, Markdown vs. HTML or LaTeX, HTML, originally, vs. SGML or Sun's ... proprietary hypertext system (Vue?).
Arguably, replacement of much office suite software with Web technologies.
Multics -> Unix.
A good majority of search results I am looking for should be simple single page HTML documents that don't use complex HTML5 features that are needed for web apps.
Change ranking, and you give websites the incentive to avoid JavaScript or CSS features that are against the reader's interests.
That's specifically why and how new standards apear. They accomplish most (though not all) the earlier capbilities, with a masive reduction of complexity. It's a form of risk mitigation and debt reduction.
Compare browsers generally: Netscape -> MSIE -> Mozilla -> Firefox -> Chrome -> Firefox. Each predecessor reached a point of complexity at which, even with massive infusions of IPO, software monopoly, or advertising monopoly cash, they were unsustainable.
The old, dedicated dependencies (frames, ActiveX, RealPlayer, Flash, ...) broke. Simpler designs continued to function.
But then we need to make another app + browser version? Which defeats the purpose...
HTML was originally contemplated as more than a method of rich text formatting. It was created as a way to describe and link arbitrary media and applications. I'd recommend reading the first published proposal for (what later became known as) the World Wide Web written by Tim Berners-Lee [1]. In my reading, I see it as being intended applications as powerful as the kind we build today - at least as far as could be contemplated and described in 1989, and given the degree of abstraction with which the document as written:
> "Hypertext" is a term coined in the 1950s by Ted Nelson [...], which has become popular for these systems, although it is used to embrace two different ideas. One idea[] is the concept: "Hypertext": Human-readable information linked together in an unconstrained way. The other idea [...], is of multimedia documents which include graphics, speech and video. I will not discuss this latter aspect further here, although I will use the word "Hypermedia" to indicate that one is not bound to text.
An example of anticipated usage:
> The data to which a link (or a hot spot) refers may be very static, or it may be temporary. In many cases at CERN information about the state of systems is changing all the time. Hypertext allows documents to be linked into "live" data so that every time the link is followed, the information is retrieved. If one sacrifices portability, it is possible so make following a link fire up a special application, so that diagnostic programs, for example, could be linked directly into the maintenance guide.
Another category of use-case was web crawling, link-based document search, and other data analysis.
These and other anticipated use-cases envision more than text formatting; the primary purposes of the proposal were, in my opinion, the inter-linking of information and the formal modeling of information, especially for the purpose of combining different programs or facilities into a single user experience.
Of course this would have required browser vendors to support two languages at the same time for a sufficiently long transition period, which was apparently too much to demand.
It's the sites that didn't adopt XHTML. Everybody on the infrastructure side loved it.
Like the latest two HTTP protocols are both based of tech that google has already made. However, IETF is like that sounds good. It's got it's advantages, but there is very little push back saying well that makes things more complicated.
For instance with HTTP/2 it has support for pushing files to the client. Most back end web stacks are still trying to think of good ways to make that easy to use. Mainly since what files to send depend on what the page contains. So either you have to specify a custom list or the web-server now needs to understand HTML to get a list of required resources. This also gets more complicated since a push will be useless if the resource is already cached. This means your webserver has to have some kinda of awareness of how clients will cache data. Again this starts to mean your web server needs more client knowledge.
This is does not even take into account how the browser should handle these things.
Additionally, while cryptography is a good thing, the standard for HTTP/2 does not require it. However, pretty much all the browsers ignore that un-encrypted HTTP/2 is allowed. So if you wanted to run HTTP/2 without TLS the browsers act like site does not exist. This gets into the problem since there are so few browsers they can basically make defacto standards. So if you went through the effort and followed the standards what you encounter may not follow those standards at all.
IIRC MS/IE wanted to implement it, but they backed off because of these issues
Asking browsers to implement h2c is asking them to make their browsers flakier... their users would see a higher connection error rate... which the user WOULD attribute to their browser, especially if they open the same URL in another browser without h2c and it works.
Using the upgrade header instead of alpn is slower anyway.
Huh? Parsing HTML5 is much more complicated than XHTML, and everything else is about the same.
Because parsing invalid XHTML, which all browsers ended doing, is more complicated than parsing HTML5...
> Because parsing invalid XHTML, which all browsers ended doing, is more complicated than parsing HTML5...
I don't understand what you mean. Isn't the non-strict parser for XHTML just the normal HTML parser? The complication levels should be equal.
Anything more would be paraphrasing http://www.webdevout.net/articles/beware-of-xhtml
In the face of arbitrary user-content, like comments? Are you checking they don't include a U+FFFF byte sequence in there? (Ten years ago almost none of the biggest XHTML advocates had websites that would keep outputting well-formed XML in the face of a malicious user, sometimes bringing their whole site down.)
It's absolutely possible to write a toolchain that ensures this, just essentially nobody does.
> Isn't the non-strict parser for XHTML just the normal HTML parser?
Yes. It's literally the same parser; browsers fork simply based on the Content-Type (text/html v. application/xhtml+xml), with no regard for the content.
The bigger problem with XML parsers is handling DOCTYPEs (and even if you don't handle external entities, you still have the internal ones), and DOCTYPEs really make XML parsers as complex as HTML ones. Sure, an XML parser without DOCTYPE support is simpler than an HTML parser, but then you aren't parsing XML.
The membership of the W3C supported XHTML, to improve interoperability among other reasons. Apple, Mozilla and Opera had a different vision and broke away and formed the WHATWG which Google and Microsoft later joined. Those companies (minus Opera) now have near total control over HTML and the W3C just rubber stamps whatever they decide.
(Note: I don't believe the participants in WHATWG were doing what they did for anti-competitive purposes, but in hindsight it had that effect.)
There are already quite a number of http/3 implementations from non-Google companies and projects [0]. Cloudflare seem to be big backers of http/3 [1]. There were some other articles today that are generally positive on the http/3 approach. One was from Tim Bray at AWS [2] and the other from @ErrataRob [3].
0. https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/Implementations
1. https://cloudflare-quic.com/
2. https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2018/11/18/Post-REST...
3. https://blog.erratasec.com/2018/11/some-notes-about-http3.ht...
Having the second-largest traffic analyzer on board would seem like more of a cautionary negative than a positive to me.
If anything, smaller sites have more to gain from HTTP/2 and HTTP/3 than the likes of Google. For example:
- Both HTTP/2 and HTTP/3 seek to reduce the number of round trips, mitigating latency between the user and the server. Now, from Google's perspective, the "server" is the nearest load balancer in a globally distributed network, which is probably geographically close to wherever the user is. Thus, users with good Internet connections typically have low enough latency for the improvements not to matter much. But Google still cares about latency because of users with poor internet connections – such as anyone on a cell network in a spotty coverage area. Well, poor connections affect all sites equally. But small sites tend to not be fully distributed; they probably only have a single origin server for application logic, and perhaps a single server period, if they're not using a CDN. That means a fixed geographic location, which will have higher latency to users farther away even if they have a good connection – thus more benefit from latency mitigation.
- QUIC can send stream data in the first packet sent to the server, without having to go through a SYN/ACK handshake first. TCP Fast Open lets plain old TCP do the same thing – but only when connecting to a server you've seen in the recent past (and retrieved an authentication tag from). Thus, QUIC is faster when connecting to a server for the first time – which affects smaller sites a lot more than Google.
End users complain all the time about latency. And that includes the latency to your small website hosted on a single server hundreds of milliseconds from your visitor... certainly more than it includes google's websites.
What you really mean is that small website operators generally don't care that their visitors are irritated by how slow their website is... and just brush it off and ignore it because they have no solution to the problem.
Maybe you should consider h2 as being for the benefit of visitors across the internet, and a benefit for those who care about performance.
It says it all that even though h2 is not required, small website have adopted it across the globe... now at 1/3rd of all websites, and growing.
a. It's really cheap for us to offer that service
b. Lots of those free customers end up upgrading, paying for extras, etc.
Between a and b offering the free service makes sense. We make money from the customers who pay us for our service (https://www.cloudflare.com/plans/), not from doing something nefarious with data. We'd be shooting ourselves in the foot if we did because that data is our customers data. We need to be very careful with that or we'd lose trust and not be in business.
Also, free means anybody can try the service and kick the tires. Often those people turn out to me the CIO, CSO, CISO, CTO, ... of big corp.
Also I have read about QUIC there are some things that are interesting about it. However, there are things that I don't like.
Moreover, this was something I read from IETF mail archive: "That QUIC isn't yet proven. That's true, but the name won't be formalised or used on the wire until the RFC is published, so we have a good amount of time to back away. Even then, if it fails in the market, we can always skip to HTTP/4 one day, if we need to."[1]
I find that pretty concerning. If it does not pan out we can just skip over. That's still something someone has to implement even it's not used much. I would only be considering things that people in general are eager to use not just a few big companies.
[1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/quic/RLRs4nB1lwFCZ_7k0...
Not true. This is why alpn and the upgrade header exist. You do not need to implement any of the new protocols, and you can certainly skip a version if you don't think it's worth the effort.
It was the only browser with a decent Javascript sandbox, at least until recently. Wikipedia claims Firefox got a sandbox this month, but I think I've seen earlier claims:
> Until November 2018, Firefox was the last widely used browser not to use a browser sandbox to isolate Web content in each tab from each other and from the rest of the system.[120][121]
What about Safari? IMHO it has strong sandboxing. Another interesting thing I found, is sharing cookie access between private tabs, Safari does not, Chrome does.
Why does a small group need to reimplement HTTP/2 and HTTP/3? It's important that we have more than 1 or 2 implementations, but we don't need more than a small handful, and we definitely don't need every independent group reimplementing them. We just need enough that anyone who needs it has access to an implementation that's usable for them, whether it's bundled with the OS (such as Apple's Foundation framework including a network stack that supports HTTP/2), or available as a library (such as Hyper for Rust, or I assume libcurl has HTTP/2 support).
We are basically doing with TLS. Which went fine - until people realized that one of the major go-to implementations of TLS contained years old unfixed bugs that could be remotely exploited.
Nor do I think that a more diverse world of TLS implementations would've led to better auditing of openSSL. We had barely enough eyeballs to audit openSSL, let alone to audit more stuff.
The issue with openSSL was that the protocol was sufficiently complicated and sufficiently critical that people just picked the available option. Perhaps those who did look into the code they were running concluded it was bad, but weren't willing to create a new library. Besides, any new library would have the stigma of 'they are using a non-standard and new crypto library'.
In that case, the solution would've been louder complains about the code quality of openSSL.
For example, it's pretty easy to write an HTTP/1.0 implementation, but it's also easy to open yourself up to DoS attacks if you do so. If you're writing a server, did you remember to put a limit on how large a request body can be before you shut down the request? Great! Did you remember to do that for the headers too? Limiting request bodies is an obvious thing to do. Limiting the size of headers, not so much. But maybe you thought of that anyway. What about dealing with clients that open lots of connections and veeery sloowly feed chunks of a request? The sockets are still active, but the connections are so slow you can easily exhaust all your resources just tracking sockets (or even run out of file descriptors). And this is just plain HTTP, without even considering interacting with TLS.
WHATWG's specification process, putting the world's main communication medium into the hands of browser vendors with an interest to eliminate competition and define entirely new Turing runtimes (WASM), and advertisers who turn around and create competing mechanisms (AMP), then not actually ever delivering a standard (the "living standard" nonsense) is broken, and has been for a long time.
I personally use Chrome because it is secure and fast (and the debugger works far better than Firefox's, Safari's or Edge's). I personally don't use Apple because I don't want to spend x% of my disposable income on iDevices per year, when I can spend 0.x% on Android devices per year. I distrust Microsoft (their security is suspect and their implementations suck: I use outlook for work and the UI is super buggy - I notice unique flaws regularly and have to live with some bugs every day. Like email notifications stopped working the other day - just unbelievable shit). I would love to not use Google, but for the compromises I need to make, it remains the best choice by far for me. Edit: fixed # flaws.
Also,Chrome might be more secure from a vulnerability point of view but browser exploits(exploit kits) are not a very common means of deploying malware these days. They tend to focus on IE and flash these days: https://blog.malwarebytes.com/threat-analysis/2018/03/exploi...
If you install some 3rd party app and give that app permission to access your data they'll give that app the access you requested them to give but otherwise no sharing AFAIK.
I don't do webdev, so I can't really comment about that. I agree wrt edge being terrible and not being willing to pay Apple prices.
Anyway I switched to Firefox on my computers and mobile system. I use that VPN to try limit Google's tracking of me and I use duckduckgo for the same reason.
Long story short I just switched back to chrome on my Android, because Firefox has kinda stopped working. I used to be able to keep 100 tabs open, not I can't even keep 1 open in the background. When I go back it just forgets what it was and won't refresh. I click refresh and it shows it's refreshing, but then nothing happens.
Nothing I can do. I'm reading some or I see a great article and I open it right away in a FF tab for later. I go back it doesn't load. Then I can't reset/restart it, because it won't die and then it stops syncing, etc.
It's really really bad. Sadly this wasn't the case when I decided to switch about 8 months back, this is only in the last 60 days.
I'll keep using Firefox for now on my desktop, but honestly I really rely on profiles and sync across profiles, which is a pain to get around on FF as it is, but now it's a big burden I can't really see my way around.
Too bad, but honestly I need a reliable tool more than I need privacy at this stage.
* Uses 30-40% CPU constantly on my Ubuntu laptop, causing the entire system to freeze.
* Slow on JS-heavy apps like JIRA, Gmail, Google docs.
* Firefox Android randomly decides to stop loading web pages, requiring a force quit and restart.
* Firefox Android bugged out while writing this comment, the text I typed would appear at a specific location, regardless of where I put the cursor. This and various other HTML input bugs require me to restart the browser again and again.
It's easy to be vocal about principles, but when it comes down to it, very few people are actually willing to impact their own comfort or convenience to truly follow them. It's simpler to just come up with a reasonable-seeming justification for why you're not really supporting things you claim to be opposed to.
*method of survival.
You can "stand up for your principles", or you can not be an ideologue, survive, and live to fight another day making progress and positive change along the way. Full stop boycott stops nothing. Changing from within is the most effective. Instead of posting shame-inducing posts like this, labeling people and assuming the worst, try assuming the best, encourage them to take actions to increase privacy and increase security. I work in that field, and when my own principles are violated, I speak out. I guarantee that changes more than people shaming others on social media. Advertising and Data collection have about as much as a chance of stopping as world governments agreeing to stop producing bullets, so let's try to make it as ethical as we can.
You're trying to paint people as hypocrites, where a more simple explanation is that maybe most of users even here on HN are not as concerned with the problem as you are. Vocal minority and all that.
The amount of blind trust that people - including very technical people - gift to Google is rather shocking.
There's also a process for Asynchronous Panning and Zooming (APZ), but that probably doesn't help much with security.
People want apps. Not browsers.
1) Firefox is SLOW. I have ~400 tabs open on a Macbook right now in Chrome, Firefox snails around at 30-40 tabs.
2) Firefox dev tools sucked for a long time, compared to Chrome's. Same goes for Safari's dev tools - and don't get me started on the clusterf..k called Internet Explorer... that's why devs drove off to Chrome in the first place and stayed there.
Also the Developer Tools of Firefox are worthless... and not only because of how slow they are.
That's odd, because I think the Chrome dev tools are junk compared to Firefox. And I've never had an operation in Firefox dev tools that wasn't instantaneous. Perhaps our use cases are markedly different.
AFAICT Google doesn't share any info with 3rd parties unless you sign up with some 3rd party and ask them to share the info. I've never used my Google account to sign up with any 3rd parties.
As for Chrome collecting my history.(a) I want that since I want to be able to search my history across devices. For those rare cases where I don't I use an Incognito window. (b) you can opt out of having Google use your history for ad targeting. https://adssettings.google.com/authenticated
Note that ad targeting does not in any way suggest Google is sharing data. In fact it's in their best interest not to share data. If they share the data then other companies can use that data themselves. If they don't share data then other companies have to go through Google for targeted ads.
If the user in question did not give specific permission for Google to steal their ProtonMail email/s and send them back to Google servers, then that should be a crime. It should be a felony, just as it would be if a Google employee opened or obtained my physical mail without permission, scanned it in some manner, and took it back to their offices.