A French Novelist Imagined Sexual Dystopia. Now It’s Arrived | Hacker News Reader

A French Novelist Imagined Sexual Dystopia. Now It’s Arrived

nytimes.com

35 pointsMelchizedek14 comments

The problem with incels is not the lack of sex, it's the belief that they need to have sex, and that women owe them sex. It's a problem of entitlement, not of sexual revolution.

Well, maybe a bit of sexual revolution: in particular, of the idea that you're a loser if you're not having sex. That is a stupid notion that society needs to get rid of. There are tons of people who aren't having sex. I didn't have any sex until I was over 30, and I'm pretty sure some of my friends are even later.

If you're really desperate to just have sex, find someone else who also just wants sex to have sex with. Visit a prostitute if you must (but check if she's legal and voluntary, and not forced into it; there's sadly a lot of human trafficking, slavery and other crime in prostitution, depending on where you live).

And if what you really want is a fulfilling relationship, then become a better person who is a safe and interesting person to have a relationship with. There are plenty of people of the opposite (or same, depending on your preference) who are also looking for a relationship, but they're not going to date an entitled creep who doesn't respect them. You really don't have to look like Brad Pitt, just being a decent person is enough. Respect people and they will respect you. But see women as sex vending machines and you're not going to get any.

To add to that, you see a lot of guys raging that women are too shallow to look past their physical appearance, when they themselves would never even consider a woman who's not conventionally attractive.

If you're a 4 out of 10, you'll be much happier once you realize that you can have a perfectly wonderful time with a woman who is also a 4 out of 10. It's fun being with someone who makes your friends jealous, but there are so many more important factors in a happy relationship. And it doesn't matter in the dark anyway.

From what I understand, inability get laid is not the issue. The problem is that these guys believe/know they are top quality in everything except appearance. Therefore they deserve top quality women, which to them means physically attractive. As these women are not falling over themselves to get with the incel, there must be something wrong with society. So, they rage at society for brainwashing their women to fuck the Chads (their word for men that successfully date the attractive women - which they call Stacy).

To me, the whole thing just looks like narcissism.

Agreed on all points. For me the most telling part is 'these guys believe/know they are top quality in everything except appearance. Therefore they deserve top quality women, which to them means physically attractive.'

That's how I might justify getting the best laptop bought for me at work..it's how you justify getting a possession. Women are not possessions, and that is a concept incels just don't seem to get.

The other thing that punches my buttons is that some self-styled incels use bad looks as an excuse, a reason why they cannot get a partner. For many women attractiveness is based on some combination of confidence, success, and how central to your current reality you treat the woman. That's according to a number of studies and based on my personal experience, so YMMV. Looks are a distant factor behind those mentioned above. There are women who are the exception and place looks above everything else as an initial discriminator, but that's true for men too. I think they are in the minority, and I think I've seen studies before that agree, but I don't have the study references at the moment to back that up.

Anyone who believes they are "top quality" and therefore deserves "top quality" women, is not in any way top quality. That possessiveness and entitlement does not make them good people, it makes them creeps. And most women don't want to date creeps.

I don't pretend to know what women want (I suspect they all want something different), but my impression is that "no creeps" tends to be pretty high on the list of requirements for many women.

The solution for the incels here is to learn to recognise their own creepy behaviour and to stop doing that, and start treating women as real people.

From my experience, they believe the difference between creepy or not is simply how good-looking the guy is.

I was an incel for a long time. I wasn't mad at anyone for not being attracted to me, just upset with myself for having some genetic conditions that are not yet curable. I think a lot of people in my position would be almost completely satisfied with legalized prostitution. Some romantic female contact, even if it's done purely as a financial transaction, can really change people's lives for the better.

I feel like people are so extra about sex. I had more sex than I probably need to in my lifetime when I was younger and I’m not sure there was a point. Sex->restaurant->sex->work just makes you fat and unhappy. Now my life is not that stable and I work all the time so I don’t want to find a partner if I don’t think I’ll be a good one. Also not interested in dating or having sex with randoms or friends. So I guess there we have it. I wish incel guys would just focus on having a fulfilling life and learning to socialize normally and then they’d probably get a girlfriend anyway.

Just curious...are you female or would you consider yourself extroverted?

No & yes. But I feel like a lot of guys confuse extroversion with being “alpha” or successful or whatever when in reality you can just be socially normal and not have such weird hangups.

I see well I learned by reading and a lot of trial and error not innate socialization. Extroversion means you get what's going on with social games and you care enough to play them. Also, you are energized by socializing with others. I get the games...mostly but most of the time I avoid playing them (stay quiet) or I simply am not present to be a participant. So when you say "hang up" us non-extroverts think (and im trying not to speak for everyone here) "Sure, but I bet you can't be alone by default." Typing this in a slight rush so not sure if my point comes across.

I think some of what hampers young guys love lives is the assumption that only "perfect" - in situations as well as looks - girls are worth dating.

Generally, "peer" women - that is, women of the same age and social standing - are "sleeping up." Because they can.

That said, plenty of niches exist for the enterprising -

1) Single moms 2) Older women 3) Girls you knew in HS / college

So basically inequality in any facet of life leads to dystopia (really winners and losers at extremes), but I also think trying to force equality in every facet of life will also lead to dystopia.

So what do we do when people have real grievances ? Is there any way for technology to solve it ? Lately I don't see technology has solving our human problems, but exacerbating them to incredibly dangerous levels.

We need to become post-humans.

We should all take a look at Shimoneta. It's a great concept of a world where speech is restricted and knowledge dies out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimoneta

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