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Comment by peatmoss | Hacker News Reader

The years I spent in New Zealand painted a vivid picture of a society of doers. I think there’s something to the idea that this comes in part from being a landmass the size of Colorado, with not much more than 4 million people, with the freedom and requirements to maintain the infrastructure of being a sovereign nation.

Seeing a NZ rocket launch condures an image of a small group of doers dreaming big. Way to go NZ!

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Wait, isn't Rocket Lab an american company, and they're just locating the rocket in NZ?

Founders were Kiwis but HQ is in California...

Mission Control was in Auckland.They used to be an NZ company but incorporated in the US to get a launch license as it was apparently much easier as a US company. Most of their work and staff is still in NZ

As mentioned yesterday in the live cast, design and manufacturing is happening in Huntington Beach, California, then it is shipped to New Zealand.

Engines and avionics, but the rocket bodies, fairings, etc., are made in NZ and final assembly is there. In this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj9BncsgvuQ the CEO talks about how that has been advantageous because apparently there's a large talent pool in carbon composite fabrication in NZ, and that while there are eventually plans to also launch from the US, when they do they'll still be making bodies in NZ and shipping them, and doing final assembly with US-made engines on the US side for those launches.

> apparently there's a large talent pool in carbon composite fabrication in NZ

Wonder how much of that was from building faster yachts for Team New Zealand?

Yep, the America's Cup success lead to recognition of NZ's somewhat burgeoning super-yacht industry, which in turn fed back more talented craftsman, fabricators, designers.

Speaking of carbon composite fabrication talent in NZ, I remember at an airshow in NZ a few years ago there was a company making a helicopter with an entirely composite airframe. Not sure what ended up happening to it, but it was interesting to see such cutting edge technology coming coming out of such a small company with minimal funding.

John Britten's superbike in the 1990s was also a pioneer for all sorts of composite manufacturing

Us Kiwis have always been good at that kind of thing though. There's actually a very healthy aviation technology and manufacturing industry here, especially for such a small country.

Was just listening to an interview with Peter Beck. He clarifies the US-NZ question. Short answer is it is both, I had my proportions off with being more (3/4) American now. It's been American company since 2012. The US factory is 3 times larger than the NZ factory and makes stuff we're can't do here.

https://podcast.radionz.co.nz/mnr/mnr-20181112-0826-rocket_l...

The rocket uses a fair amount of ITAR-restricted technology, which means that they needed a pretty robust US-based organization and engine manufacturing. The company also sold a bunch of suborbital rocket launches to the US government before they raised money to build an orbital rocket. And the money mostly came from US-based VCs. All of these details feed into the company HQ being in the US, but a majority of their employees appear to be in NZ.

ITAR restricts US parts. It does not apply to non US technology sources although Wassenar and MTCR are multilateral. It would be possible to make rockets with no ITAR covered parts. After all that's what Russia France and China have.

Russian and Chinese rockets are definitely covered by ITAR. ITAR isn't a trade barrier or patent protection. It doesn't care about national origin. It applies to all export of relevant technologies from the US. So if you imported a Russian rocket into the US, its further export would be a violation of ITAR rules regardless of where that rocket first came from.

Right, but if you are importing a Russian rocket to somewhere not US, you don't have to worry.

It's more of a New Zealand company with enough presence in the US to be legal for ITAR purposes.

How do you get to that? Their rockets are designed and manufactured in the US. Their money has largely been from the US. They're incorporated in the US. They're using US technology and engineering.

That's a long ways from the minimal contribution you're implying.

see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_Lab

The manufacturing is in New Zealand. I don't know about design, but I understood that design is also done in New Zealand. They received money from the US and they cooperated with NASA, and for that they needed to have facilities in the US, but I don't know how much.

They now opened a second launch facility in the US, but that is not a large operation compared to design, manufacturing and testing the rockets.

Articles from the past make it sound like a New Zealand company with a corporate structure that is a legal fiction to be legal in the US.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&...

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/07/29/kiwi_company_rocket...

Engines and avionics are manufactured in Huntington Beach.

https://everydayastronaut.com/inside-rocketlab/

Most of them work out by the Auckland airport. A really good friend of mine works there as an engineer. He works some absolutely insane hours. I couldn't do it personally, but they all really believe in rockets and they've had some amazing success.

It is what US client states have to do to succeed. The US, sensibly, put its own interests first and dictates US content limits and export controls but the closest allies give up the most in the relationship. Rocket Lab has found a really sensible compromise that satisfies US hegemony and still allows high tech industry development in NZ. I am sure countries like the UK, Australia and Canada are watching.

Is a Kiwi rocket company that is forced to be half based in the US to satisfy US legislation any more American than an American rocket company that uses Russian built engines and other components sourced from Europe? The flag waving denies the reality that space is a global industry.

Sweet as!

It's unfortunate that the doers leave NZ as soon as possible to do stuff elsewhere most of the time.

I really wish Ireland could embrace the same attitude of NZ.

So why did you leave? (Asking because I have an opportunity to move there.)

You should totally do it, and go to Wellington. It's the best city :-P I lived there for three years and miss it. I might try to get another work visa, either to go back to Welly or Melbourne.

So same question: why did you go away, or how did you loose your work visa?

For me it's a cool job in Auckland. What worries us is the distance and the logistics of bringing over our entire family... I can see myself working there, bringing over the family, and then loosing my job e.g. because of some recession and not find another job in the grace period.

I started with a Holiday Work visa and later applied for and got a regular work visa (was working full time in tech, so they're easy to get).

eh, I left for some complicated personal reasons. I wrote a post about it if you're interested: https://khanism.org/perspective/minimalism/

edit: my visa was still good though; could have easily paid to get my work to residence or full residence visas. Kinda wish I had. :-P

Thx best of luck to you :-)

If you are in IT then I would not worry to much about the job issue to much past the first job, there is still plenty of demand for skilled IT workers despite the record net migration of the last few years. However, make sure you are comfortable with housing prices / rent, particularly in the Auckland area.

Yeah it's a job in IT but what if demand drops? My feeling is that people in IT have gotten a bit arrogant about their employability (not just in NZ) I remember the 2001 recession :-)

But I don't mind loosing my job for a while. We would mind having to leave the country and move back halfway across the planet after having brought over our family.

I left NZ decades ago due to lack of software opportunities. I'd be tempted to return, but getting a "first job" in NZ would be a problem if I returned, I think, given that I'm aged over 50 and haven't worked for years.

P.S. Avoid Wellington if possible, it's an earthquake mega-disaster waiting to happen.

> P.S. Avoid Wellington if possible, it's an earthquake mega-disaster waiting to happen.

What, just like California?

I would highly recommend Wellington if you do software, are entrepreneurial, or you are sociable.

It is the most cosmopolitan city, the friendliest to foreigners, the friendliest to all ages (because so many people move there to work, and it is the only major city in NZ with a city centre based on walking).

Just my opinion as a well travelled NZer. Yes, an earthquake would wreak havoc, but I think the positives well outweigh the risks.

Wellington is a terrible risk, there's a major fault line running right through the city. But yeah, it's a decent place to live in the meantime.

Although, it should be mentioned that the weather is also terrible. I'll never forget that wind.

And they regularly get cracking good days too. Personally I prefer the Wellington weather to Christchurch (nor-wester, hayfever, overcast, too hot or too cold), or Auckland (I really don't like Auckland's weather).

For me the best places in NZ for weather are Nelson, or North of Kaitaia (the winterless North, although rains).

Nothing beats Wellington on a good day.

The less there is to celebrate the more we celebrate it! Wellington is my favourite city, but I like a good fire so may be biased.

And there are some simple ways to make sure your earthquake risks are lower than other risks in your life.

1. Don't work in old buildings - especially hipster brick ones. (Maybe if they have added steel structure that looks ridiculously oversized: see Dux Central, what was Twisted Hop in Christchurch).

2. Avoid living on hills with unstable geology.

3. Avoid living in old apartments that are not up to 100% earthquake code.

Liquifaction really isn't as big an issue as you might think.

Anecdote: my parents are on top of the 7.2 Darfield quake, my sister's is very close to the 7.8 Kaikoura epicentre, and I live in Christchurch.

Unfortunately you've described the majority of Wellington's buildings. Wellington is old timber houses on hills, or poorly built apartments on reclaimed land in the harbour, most of which are not up to earthquake code, and aren't required to be for another decade.

> Wellington is old timber houses on hills

These seem to do ok and have been tested on some decent shakes, unlike some of the new code-compliment buildings. Chimneys are a notable exception.

The risk with the housing stock on Wellington's hills isn't that they'll fall over, timber houses on piles are quite safe in earthquakes as they are very flexible. The main risk is landslides.

>> P.S. Avoid Wellington if possible, it's an earthquake mega-disaster waiting to happen.

> What, just like California?

I tend to think like the parent, so am curious where our imaginations diverge. Basically, I'd worry about a violent enough earthquake that lots of people/supplies immediately need to be moved in/out, but their movement is impeded by the geography. It seems likely that the two roads out of town would be impassible (isn't one on land that lifted out of the water in a major quake?), and the airport and waterfront are mostly on reclaimed land so will likely need substantial work before boats/planes can operate.

It's a lovely city though - second best in NZ to Dunedin!

Wellington is hosting KiwiCon later this week too: https://www.kiwicon.org/

New Zealand's software industry is significantly more mature than it was 2+ decades ago. Multiple firms with several hundred developers building their own products rather than just government consulting.

Getting hired is hard, but not impossible. The unemployment rate is sub 4% these days.

If you're concerned about your employability, perhaps email Xero/Vend/Flux Federation/Catalyst IT/Intergen/Datacom/Trade Me/Weta Digital/... and explain your situation?

If you're willing to work with recruiters, the team at Talent Army are bona fide good.

Thanks, if I get serious I'll look into it.

My main worry is that I'll effectively be a guest labourer. If I loose my job in Auckland, I have a grace period and if I fail to find another job within this period (e.g. because we're in the middle of a global recession cleaning out overinvestment in startups) I can ship my kids back home across half the planet...

Permanent residency is fairly easy to get in New Zealand if you work in tech and have a degree, especially if your job offer is outside Auckland or pays over $100k.

Have a look at the residency points calculator and see how many you get: https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zealand-visas/apply-for-...

Yep but they've toughened it up a bit in recent years (good for NZ to do so, in my humble opinion -- without wanting go into politics, I wish my own native country would do something similar). A few years ago I would have gotten permanent residency immediately. Now apparently it's really necessary, de facto, to have worked there before applying for it.

One of the reasons I moved from Wellington to Melbourne was the earthquake risk. After the Kaikoura earthquake in 2016, I realised how vulnerable Wellington is if there's a similar sized, magnitude 7-8 earthquake centred on Wellington (which there is a significant risk of). There's only one highway into Wellington, and if that gets cut off after an earthquake (which is very likely, it was down to one lane after the 2016 quake due to a storm at the same time) then Wellington is only accessible by boat.

The 2016 earthquake also showed that despite efforts to earthquake-strengthen buildings in the city, it's still very vulnerable to earthquake damage.

> it's still very vulnerable to earthquake damage.

And tsunamis.

Wellington has enough hills that tsunamis never had me particularly worried.

It also has some flat areas by the sea - Lyall bay / Kilburnie, Mirimar, Petone. The Tsunami risk to Wellington is, in my opinion, severely underrated.

IT != software engineering. IT is always one of the cost centers of a company. Every software company (Facebook, Google, Microsoft, etc.) has an IT department. IT is like doing desktop support or networking. Need a new laptop? Can't login? Call IT. The software engineers who write software are not part of IT. Not sure if that's what you meant though.

Don't do it. I grew up there. Parochial, small-minded, cliquey people, all the money is in construction and farming rather than tech, poor range of jobs, low wages, and relatively expensive real estate.

I moved to Australia, found more interesting work at more than double the salary. Nicer weather and more genuine people, and real multicultural culture due to truly international big cities.

But also 30% tax rate, totally open for business, common law, beautiful nature, forced by their difficult geographic location "to try harder" and be more open. I would also say that being a small country puts a limit to having big political ambitions. Many safe, wealthy, stable countries are small and sovereign (or were at least originally based on "small-minded" localist politics). I can see NZ become some kind of Pacific Switzerland -- which arguably is also built on a substrate of conservative or "parochial" people.

And is NZ not just as multicultural as Australia?

And finally: another commenter here responded "New Zealand's software industry is significantly more mature than it was 2+ decades ago." Can you understand what he means by that? When did you leave NZ?

I hope you care to elaborate, we have to decide next week so any opinion is welcome, especially if you grew up there :-)

I also grew up in New Zealand, and it's not for me. It's great if you want to start a family and have a very quiet life. I think I might retire there if I can somehow afford a house.

One of the main reasons I left is that I could never afford a house, or even the down-payment on a mortgage. If I had lots of money then New Zealand would probably be more appealing to me, but it's not a good place to earn it. I don't know if you'll be able to get a very competitive salary, but it might be worth it if you're really excited about the company, and you'll be working on some really interesting things.

One thing to mention is that most shops will close at 5pm, and many cafes even close at 3pm. I think once a week, the shopping malls will stay open until 10pm. The streets are completely quiet at night, and you won't see anyone walking around. After living in bigger cities for a while, I'm always really shocked when I go back for a visit. It's like a ghost town. It's an important factor for me because I work remotely, so I hated being stuck at home and having nowhere to go at 8pm.

Another very important point: You will probably have to cook almost all of your own food at home. Going out to eat at cafes and restaurant is extremely expensive, and it's probably not something that you can afford to do every day (especially not on a NZ salary.) I'm used to living in cities where it's normal to eat out at restaurants most of the time. But you can't do that in New Zealand unless you're very wealthy.

Anyway, it's great if you want to live somewhere quiet and raise a family. You can also spend lots of time at the beach, and go for walks in nature. But you can do that in lots of other countries, too. Personally, I prefer to live somewhere a bit more vibrant, where there's a lot of opportunities and things to do.

I think you've really hit the nail on the head there. I also grew up in New Zealand and left for Australia for the reasons that you specified. Cost of living is the same or higher than Australia, but with lower wages. My grocery bill is almost half of what it was in New Zealand, my rent is about the same, and my salary is double what it was back home.

New Zealand is a great country if you want what it offers. If I did want to settle down and raise a family I'd sail back across the ditch in a heartbeat.

Even if they're paying you half your current salary? :-)

Yes, money isn't everything, it's a means to an end. A lot of Kiwis move over to Australia for 5 years or so to make a pile of savings, then move back to NZ and settle down. If you get a decent job and don't blow all your money living the big city lifestyle you can save $15-20k per year. The trades pay a lot better in Australia than New Zealand, and if you live outside central Melbourne or Sydney cost of living is fairly low.

When you say double, are we talking for lower/mid-range career levels? At the upper levels, I think it's quite comparable (living & working in Auckland atm, but for a multi-national, so being paid a bit above market due to rolling RSUs).

I can't see myself earning 500k p.a. in Australia doing software PM, if so, I'm moving tomorrow :)

Thx for your reply! Housing is problematic in Auckland... half of the offered income would go to rent.

About family & excitement: we have little kids, so cooking at home and not going out much will be normal for us, regardless of where we live, for many years to come :-)

The wage thing is correct. Moving to NZ will cut my income by quite a bit more than 50%. But I'm fascinated with the rugged "wanting it more" vibes of NZ vs my native country. Vibes which I'm either picking correctly or just imagining. Care to comment on that?

I think you're right about the "wanting it more" vibes. Maybe also related to the "number 8 wire mentality" [1], where farmers get things done with whatever they have. There are lots of amazing inventors, scientists, and explorers from New Zealand.

I think New Zealanders seem to have a really high level of empathy compared to many other countries. There are lots of non-profit organizations that do amazing work, in addition to the awesome public healthcare system. St John [2] provides free first aid and ambulance rides to everyone, and they're a charity staffed by volunteers and run on donations (they're also in Australia and the UK.)

Also ACC [3] is an amazing safety net that most people take for granted. If you are injured in an accident and can't work any more, they will take care of you for the rest of your life. (As well as universal healthcare, we also have universal no-fault accident insurance.) We have a family friend who suffered severe brain damage in a car accident over 20 years ago. They're unable to work, and ACC is still giving them 80% of their salary (adjusted for inflation), so they are able to stay in a nice home with qualified caregivers.

So it's a pretty awesome country. It's just a bit quiet, very expensive, and the tech salaries are not very competitive.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_8_wire

[2] https://www.stjohn.org.nz

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_Compensation_Corporat...

Good points.

> many cafes even close at 3pm

That’s far too close to a black mark against NZ coffee though. The weak, lukewarm, milky liquid that is served up elsewhere is deeply depressing. The stuff I want is best not consumed late in the day.

I agree, I think the coffee and food in New Zealand is some of the best in the world. The average restaurant in Auckland is just so much better than the average restaurant in San Francisco (and many other cities I've lived in). I think there is just a really high standard in NZ, and I've had very few bad experiences at restaurants. San Francisco was like playing Russian Roulette. There's just a lot of very mediocre food. If you want to go somewhere with good reviews, you have to make a reservation well in advance, or wait in line for 2 hours. You don't have to do that so much in NZ.

I don't know what century you lived in NZ, but none of what you mentioned about shops closing is true. Sounds like when I was a kid in the 70's.

Sorry yeah, there some better places to live if you want a nightlife, like the Auckland city center or Newmarket, but that's even more expensive. (And still really quiet compared to other places in the world.)

I was talking about the suburbs in west Auckland, like Henderson, Kumeu, etc. And in smaller towns as well. One time we were thinking about moving to New Plymouth, so we stayed for a week, and that was definitely way too quiet for me.

> Parochial, small-minded, cliquey people, all the money is in construction and farming rather than tech, poor range of jobs, low wages, and relatively expensive real estate

It's funny that you moved to Australia and complain that NZ is parochial and small minded. I've found Australia to be even worse, although Sydney and Melbourne are large enough that you can self select into groups of people where you avoid that. Australia is multicultural, sure, but not in an inclusionary way. When was the last time New Zealand had race riots?

Real estate in Melbourne and Sydney aren't exactly affordable either, unless you enjoy a 1 hour commute each direction daily.

Australia has great pay, and Melbourne and Sydney are great for the big city life if that's what you enjoy (which I do). Remember as well that if you're a New Zealand citizen in Australia you're essentially treated as a guest worker, you get minimal government benefits, regardless of how long you've lived here, and technically your visa is subject to cancelation at any time (although if you're not a criminal that's not a particular issue).

Agreed, you could have been talking about Brisbane/SE Qld as well. Just swap farming for mining.

Real estate prices relative to wages have been in the extremely unaffordable range for a decade and construction continues to be propped up to protect years of misguided investment in what is a ponzi scheme in all but name.

"Parochial, small-minded, cliquey people" and so you moved to Australia? I don't believe you have ever met any Australians. Or New Zealanders. One or the other.

There is a small town mentality in NZ which is happily absent in the Australian big cities.

For instance, nobody in Oz has ever asked me what school I went to. I got asked that regularly in NZ by status-insecure middlebrow white people.

The question you're more likely to get is what school do your kids go to. Asking a New Zealander about their school back in NZ would be meaningless. You could say Raupo primary school and no one would know.

I was born and raised in New Zealand, but left soon after graduating university for Australia. The pay in New Zealand is just not that good, especially with house prices rising the way they have been over the past decade.

Upon saying that, if I grow old and have kids, I'd love to move back. Good work-life balance, relaxed lifestyle, and ready access to the outdoors. 30% of the land in New Zealand is conservation land owned by the government and publicly accessible. If you live outside of Auckland, you can get outside the city in half an hour, and be in proper wilderness within an hour. All the major cities are coastal too, with great beaches in the summer (although the water is rather cold year round).

It's definitely a great place if you have children. New Zealand is an incredibly egalitarian country due to its small size. I noticed a big contrast between NZ and Australia when I moved to Australia with how much people here talk about their background. People in Australia talk a lot more about their cultural heritage (e.g. whether their ancestors were Italian, British, or wherever else), and there's a lot more elitism about where people went to high school (private schools are very popular in Australia, not so much in NZ) and where they went to university. Since NZ only really has one university per city, people don't really care where you went to university, whereas Melbourne has like 7 universities, and there's a lot of elitism about what university you manage to get into.

As a New Zealander working in IT (games dev), I would agree with the criticism that NZ cost of living is high and house ownership is expensive (esp. in Auckland) and wages are relatively low. However, the other criticisms I saw reported here about cafes closing at 3pm(!) and Australians being more open-minded are just bizarre. The NZ game dev community is very warm and sharing (actually, the Australian game-devs are too)

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