Hacker News Reader

Comment by pcx | Hacker News Reader

In the last 3 months, we have built the new version of our API in Golang, the old one was in rails. The api serves a mobile app and a web app.

Despite taking longer to build, it's a treat to work on Golang. The explicit error handling and static typing have made our code much more reliable, with a lot less unit/integration tests required. Concurrency is dead easy to understand and build over. We are OK with using dep, definitely miss a debugger or an REPL. Having generics would make it much easier to write code. But overall it was worth it. Our response times are much lower now with a lot less server nodes required.

View on HN

>We are OK with using dep, definitely miss a debugger or an REPL.

I personally use Visual Studio with the go extension and delve and the debugger works quite well.[1]

I believe that the Goland IDE also has an integrated debugger.[2]

[1] https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode-go/wiki/Debugging-Go-cod...

[2] https://www.jetbrains.com/go/features/

GoLand comes with Delve too, very well integrated. :)

Debugging in VSCode on macOS works too, using Delve.

Yes, I actually meant VSCode, hn doesn't let you edit comments after a while and I wasn't completely aware of the differences between Visual Studio and VSCode. I checked and I'm actually using VSCode (in ubuntu).

> definitely miss a debugger or an REPL

Bizarre that a programming language designed by non first time language designers, backed by a multi-billion dollar company and used extensively throughout that company(by "new" engineers), doesn't have a world class debug story.

Coming from Python, I've scarcely missed it, and I certainly wouldn't trade it for the myriad gains from switching to Go.

Coming from python is somewhat of a low bar, compared to more modern and sophisticated PLs.

Maybe. I just meant that the debugger is a pretty big deal to Python developers, yet I don’t really miss it in Go.

The python debugger is great...

It’s _fine_, but I rarely (almost never) find myself reaching for it. If I need the debugger, it’s probably a sign that I should be improving the logging so I can troubleshoot production issues.

This is especially true in Go where the type checker gives you a lot of confidence that your code works before you run it.

Could you define a view of "world class debug story"?

Visual Studio for C#, any Java IDE for Java, Visual Studio Code for Javascript/Typescript.

I don't see how these are different from the Go debuggers in JetBrains Goland or Visual Studio Code.

I use pprof to find and fix bugs in Go apps. I just recently used pprof to find and report a huge memory leak in coreDNS (when using it as an authoritative DNS server for very large zones). I was able to find the bug and get it fixed in less than 24 hours.

https://github.com/miekg/dns/issues/786

https://github.com/google/pprof

Not really. In 20+ years of professional software development, I can count on one hand the times I needed a debugger.

The most effective debugging tool is still careful thought, coupled with judiciously placed print statements.

        — Brian W. Kernighan, in the paper Unix for Beginners (1979)

I would like to think technology has advanced some since 1979.

And the most effective car crash prevention system (for now) is the human brain, yet I still want a seatbelt, airbags and good brakes on a car.

Having a debugger available does not drop your IQ by 20 points.

> Having a debugger available does not drop your IQ by 20 points.

Not necessarily, but it can have that effect. Sometimes I spend a long time in the debugger, following the chain from effects to causes to the causes’ causes and so on, getting a little dopamine hit every time I uncover a new level – it’s exciting, like watching a detective show – and ultimately discovering the root cause… only to have it be something dumb or obvious, something I might have found in less time by just patiently rereading the code.

You can just not use the debugger...

The debug story in Go is fairly decent these days for Linux, using Delve (the main "debugging" thing):

https://github.com/derekparker/delve

Apparently Delve supports Win and OSX/macOS too, though I've not tried it on those in years. On BSD though... there's no debugging story. :(

And I find this expectation rather bizarre. Since when compiled programming languages ship a debugger?

You can use a world class debugger, known as gdb, with Go, and yes, they do provide extensions for gdb to make it understand high-level Go constructs (such as goroutines, maps, slices, channels, ...): https://golang.org/doc/gdb

I feel like there's weird fud around gdb and go. It's worked for me just fine every time I've used it.

Looking at commercial compilers, since the mid-80's.

What you say has nothing to do with languages and it precedes 80s; Watcom, VC++ etc. comes with a debugger because the proprietary system they run on doesn't have one. GNU/Linux always had gdb.

So if you want me to spell it out, here you go: it's bizarre to expect a debugger from modern compiled languages which have been FOSS from the beginning.

That statement fails on the face of mainframes and commercial UNIX environments, which also have platform debuggers.

Also fails regarding other FOSS languages like Python, which have had a debugger since ever.

What fails? Some commercial C/C++ compiler producers invest into a debugger typically because some of their customers use it on a platform without a good built-in debugger. Yes, some systems had debuggers. The point is, some didn't.

I said compiled language, which Python isn't. Yes, gdb won't help you debugging scripting/VM languages.

Anyway, this is getting off topic, as we're talking about the alleged lack for debuggers for Go binaries for today's Go users, and neither of the things you mentioned are relevant. In my experience, nitpicking rarely leads to anything fruitful.

Those some commercial producers as you put it, have invested in debuggers for BASIC, Pascal, Modula-2, PL/S, PL/8, NEWP, C, C++ and Ada for IBM/360, VAX/VMS, IBM 400, Solaris, Aix, HP-UX, Tru64, Irix, by IBM, Unisys, DEC, Compaq, SGI and HP themselves.

And if I have to mention a FOSS compiled language instead of Python, with debugger support out of the box, then Oberon, Modula-2, FreeBasic, Gambas and FreePascal come to mind.

> definitely miss a debugger

gdb works well with Go: https://golang.org/doc/gdb

How are you able to write code without being able to set breakpoints, stepping in a function, do mouse over to see the value of a variable? Do you print values of variables when you need to?

It helps to write small functions with good interfaces and plenty of tests... The better your fundamentals, the less you need the debugger. (But, also, there's gdb and delve for debugging. So, do what ya wanna.)

Many people write code fine without a debugger.

Break your software down into smaller components and write tests for each of them.

And for pre-existing crappy code? :)

Indeed debuggers are great tools for reverse engineering

I personally almost never use a debugger with Go (or Rust), but it looks like you can get all of that functionality with VS Code using Delve: https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode-go/wiki/Debugging-Go-cod...

I found a video of someone debugging Go code in VS Code, and I saw them set breakpoints, step around in a function, and hover over a variable to see its value, in addition to the sidebar containing all of the values of all of the local variables and the stack traces.

Huh? https://github.com/derekparker/delve integrates nicely with many editors, including [1] and [2] and allows you to do exactly that.

1 - https://www.jetbrains.com/go

2 - https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode-go

Did you consider Java?

Not op, but I don't think people would want to go from Ruby to Java. I was working on Java before I was a Go dev, feel, Java is too verbose. Go is so simple to start with and you don't need "frameworks" for deploying a production quality microservice.

Modern Java is pretty cool. You can you use a mini-framework inspired by stuff like Sinatra/Flask, for example Dropwizard.

I moved dropwizard to Django. Life is too short to generate setters.

Why generate? Why not Lombok?

Who cares, that is the least of the problems with Java ;)

I haven't used dropwizard, but used Spring boot extensively. While it definitely helps me move faster and write less boilerplate, it's still way too verbose relative to Golang.

And talk about the build size, time and the fact that you could generate a build and run it bare metal anywhere.

Compiling Java to native code has always been an option since the early days, via GCJ which sadly never got much love, and all major commercial JDKs.

Nowadays there is Graal and SubstrateVM for those that rather not pay for compilers.

Imagine how much better would have been using a language with a proper sound static type system and ADT instead...

Reply on news.ycombinator.com