Thousands of Swedes Are Inserting Microchips Under Their Skin | Hacker News Reader

Thousands of Swedes Are Inserting Microchips Under Their Skin

npr.org

33 pointsZeljkoS49 comments

They look like the ones that are commonly in use (mandated by Law) for dogs and (I believe optional) for cats here in Italy since years.

Besides the moral and psychological implications of being "marked" for life (not entirely unlike the numbers tatooed on forearms of concentration camp prisoners) and the (obvious) privacy and security concerns, I am failing to see the actual advantages (no risk of losing your card or keys)?

So, let's say, instead of having to give your money and keys to someone holding a knife to your throat, you will be given a small sample of on the field micro surgery.

In any case having them inserted just over the (left) thumb doesn't seem to me such a good idea.

What are the moral implications of doing this voluntarily?

This seems "easily" reversible by just having the chip removed.

I wasn't thinking of the moral implications for the individual (which is of course volunteering) I was thinking of the moral implications for the society.

Of course it is removable, the "easily" is debatable.

In a society where many (most) people have this chip implanted a small scar just over your left thumb is a signal you have something to hide (or if you prefer you are "different").

On the other hand if many (most) people have this chip implanted those that decide to have it NOT implanted from the beginning will be seen as "queer" (or however again "different").

It's voluntary today, when it's a rarity. If they become wide-spread companies and governments will inevitably start tying services to chips, which will drive adoption even more, and eventually you will not be able to get those services in any other way.

This story unfolds over, and over, and over again, and it seems people never learn. SSNs went through this exact process. Credit cards became a required piece of information for transactions not involving credit. There are places in the wold now where simply not carrying an ID is effectively illegal. You are not allowed to not have an email anymore.

You either can wait for this to happen and then hope certain misuse get eventually outlawed, or simply push back from the very beginning so that adoption does not reach a critical mass.

And no, I am not going to respond to inevitable apologists who will reply to this post. Not because I have no arguments, but because I have no time to argue with yet another person smugly telling me that I'm "free" to avoid civilization if I don't like creepy, covertly totalitarian stuff.

> If they become wide-spread companies and governments will inevitably start tying services to chips

Yes, Christians have long thought a chip will fulfill this prophecy: "Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark," --- The Revelation

I got an rfid implant 10-ish years ago. It's useless really, after the first giggle of signing in to Windows with your hand (I hacked up a gina module at the time to do this). Because of the many compatibility issues, it's hard to hook this up to mainstream building access systems,and the implantable chips are very basic and insecure (it's trivial to read and spoof them, moreso nowadays with software rf equipment).

Apart from that, they're not dangerous. You can get mri's with them, hold your hand on an induction stove at full power, and fight with it (bjj and muay thai).

I had mine taken out because I didn't use it and I wasn't sure about the long term risks (migration under the skin, mostly). I had to find a fairly hardcore body mod studio to have it put in/taken out, the regular ones and doctors wouldn't do it. Mine was put in with a dermal punch and two tiny incisions, which from what I could compare with pictures online made for clean healing.

A new TSA global entry program lets you pass the line with subcutaneous RFID tags. Then you're kidnapped while on vacation and the tag is removed.

Yea, they need to be a bit more sophisticated to ensure the right person is using the device, and that they are still alive. Perhaps dozens of these need to be placed all over the body.

When I've entered various countries recently I've been able to go through an automated gate where you scan your passport and then you have to look at a camera and or scan your finger prints etc.

Surely the RFID under the skin is just a convenient way to carry your passport rather than getting you around the biometric scanners?

I'm an American with a chipped hand. It's pretty much useless but I enjoy it all the same. Just a little too ahead of the tech it would interact with. All I want is a reasonable nfc lock that doesn't have shit reviews on Amazon so I can lock my stuff at the gym, but I'll settle for rickrolls I guess.

Cost me $100 for the kit + $40 (after tip) for implantation by a trusted professional in the bodymod business.

It's an ntag 216 if you're curious about the specs.

I don't know if I'm terribly keen on an authentication system which can be cut out of my dead body and used. Maybe these should have a way to detect removal?

maybe put two devices inside the body, and if they change orientation or distance too greatly they will no longer function.

You don't even need to be dead if it's not implanted very deep. Just a small flesh wound.

Freaky! Also, this was surprising: "Only 1 in 4 people living in Sweden uses cash at least once a week."

If Sweden is anything like the UK, you really don't need cash at all for day-to-day life. Most shops, coffee places, market stalls etc accept cards now (even very small ones), as does much public transport (in cities).

In addition there are contactless payments nearly everywhere -- it's becoming an oddity to have to insert your card for any payment under £30.

I definitely haven't used cash in the last two weeks, and I think maybe only a handful of times in the last few months.

Apparently digital currency is all causing a problem in tipping and donation. Can't put a dollar in the old man's hat if you don't carry a dollar any more. And tipping at bars etc can be harder too.

How is tipping at a bar harder? You just write on the bill what amount to want to tip when you close your tab.

Write with what? I've yet to see a single restaurant put a pen next to bill. What I do is I leave the cash after card payment. Seen the option on card reader for tip maybe 2-3x in my life.

Bar tabs (in addition to tipping culture) are less common outside of NA. It is however quite common to leave the change from say a £5 note for a £4 beer. This is purely down to the convince (no need to wait for your change) and frictionless nature (the bartender already had your tip) of the transaction.

When I was in New Orleans recently some buskers had Venmo accounts which I thought was a neat progression, for lack of a better word.

The Edinburgh Fringe introduced a tap-to-tip system this year, based on iZettle readers in nice-looking Plexiglass stands. The readers are preconfigured to debit £5 from your card on a tap. That's a bit more than your average street show tip of a pound or two, but really good if you're wandering around without any change - you don't have to feel guilty about watching a street show but not being able to pay at the end.

>And tipping at bars etc can be harder too.

That's not too much of an issue in Europe.

It's certainly a bit more of a pain if you're paying with card. As noted in a sibling comment, it's pretty uncommon for bars to allow you to run up a tab in a lot of places in Europe. I lived in Sweden for awhile recently and out of the many bars I went to I could only think of one or two in the entire nation that allowed me to open a tab. So you have to do the whole song and dance with typing in extra every time you go to the bar (assuming the card machine is set to allow it, some aren't). There isn't even a guarantee that the extra amount will go to the bartender, so your best bet is to just tip in cash. But wait! a lot of bars in Sweden for example don't even accept cash.

My point being that it is out of the norm to tip for drinks in a bar.

You don't need to tip at bars when the law mandates all workers have to receive a livable wage.

I understand that this issue is a sensitive one and there is a great deal of justifiable criticism of tipping culture. However, this comment is snarky. We all know that many countries have higher minimum wages in place of a culture of tipping. The person to whom you responded is not responsible for the prevalence of tipping where he or she lives and there is no reason to be reductionist, accusatory or otherwise snarky.

This is the case in many (most?) states in the US as well.

Tipping's not a problem, when they present The Machine you type in the tip you want.

Canadian here. We tip 15% on almost everything but also pay by card most of the time. What happens is that machines have three quick press buttons (10%, 15% and 20%). You can also press the "tip $" button and enter the amount you want. Once that's done, you simply tap your card on the pay-pass machine that the barman presented to you.

That being said, I've not given money to an homeless person in ages. Whenever asked I simply answer "I only carry cards, sorry" and they immediately lose all attention towards me.

Assuming Sweden is the same as Finland and Denmark then it's even better than the UK for not needing cash. The only DKK and EUR I need are for buying a bus ticket if I've forgotten my pass - and there's even an app for that.

In the UK I find that I need cash a couple of times a month, usually a market stall (most seem to use iZettle, but some don't). Occasionally you'll also get a cab trying to con you by saying their machine's broken - and suddenly getting it working again when you cite the law to them (they need a working card reader in London).

Sweden also has a fairly friction-free mobile payment system called Swish that you can use to pay small amounts to other people or small shops.

I live in the US and almost never use cash. Is this not the norm?

In big cities at least. I used cash once in the last three months I think (because the place we were shopping at looked a bit dodgy).

You can generally get by in most suburbs that way as well. I really only use cash for my monthly D&D game when we're buying take out.

I live in a small (300,000 people) Midwest city and I pretty much only use cash for person to person transactions.

It depends. If you're shopping at Whole foods you can pay with card. If you're shopping at the bodega you pay with cash because the processing fees are larger than their margin (and consequently they might not have the card infrastructure).

This is person to person. I buy stuff from the bodega a few times a week. I use my card because that's my preferred payment method. I never carry cash around. I wish they, "made" the same off me either way but it's not really my fault that it costs them something for me to pay in a convenient way.

To be fair, credit cards in the US can have great rewards, probably better than in any other country. I get 2-5% back on all of my purchases, which means that the credit card fees paid by the merchant aren't really "wasted" on the payment processers.

I'm in the US also and I rarely use cash.

When I was in Stockholm a few months ago using cash seemed actively discouraged. There were several restaurants and other businesses I went to that refused to accept cash.

It's was the exact opposite for me when I was in Berlin last year. The only places that I found that accepted cards were tourist stops and Starbucks. None of the good, local restaurants I visited accepted cards and there were frequently lines on ATM machines.

Germans are well known for their propensity for cash, in part due to their strong desire for privacy. Often they will take cards, but only something like their indigenous GeldKarte[0] which tries to be as cash like as possible.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geldkarte

Sweden was early adopting cards, but it's really changed in the last couple of years. When I went back this year the local pizza place had a sign saying they no longer take cash. Just five years ago pizza places were always happy to get cash, so they could (sometimes) pocket the money and not pay tax.

It's mostly debit cards, not credit. So the merchant fees are low.

Sweden also introduces new coins and bills a few years ago, and then a lot of people just gave up on cash.

There's also the 'Swish' system for sending money to people. You sign up and link your mobile number to your bank account. Then you can send money to a phone number, and it instantly goes to the linked bank account. Swish is popular for splitting bills, selling used items, market stalls, charities and such. Even some local stores take Swish payments, although that's not what the system is intended for.

The UK's PayM is similar to Swish, but the UX is not as good. Sweden is actually a bit behind the UK on contactless though.

Does anyone know what chip they implant to get contactless payment, subway access, LinkedIn details, concert tickets and access control in a single chip?

I assume there are strict crypto requirements for several of those, beyond those of the chips vets use for pets?...

If you ever need an MRI, especially an emergency MRI, there could be some complications here...

Mythbusters tried it once. It distorted the image in that area, but didn't have enough ferrous material to be ripped out. It's a glass capsule with a very small ferrite rod wrapped in copper.

why is the capacity so miniscule?

when I can fit the entirety of a text-only version of wikipedia on one of these, then I'll get one.

why do I need this? I just do. Just because. :-)

Just something for people too trendy for a phone

Next step: GATTACA.

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