What can I do about climate change?
bbc.com
bbc.com
That being said, I can't help being reminded about German language lessons I had ~10 years ago where the teacher was preaching that we must all ditch electric kettles for the sake of the planet. I asked her how is this going to help -- even if 100_00 people do it today -- if corporations are happy to let toxic waste seep into the ocean and lobby to never close coal plants. And we're talking thousands of tons a day. She wasn't pleased that I attacked her agenda.
So alright, I know we all can do better, individuals included. That's unequivocally true.
But let's not ignore the fact that the biggest fault lies in organizations that are happy to pay people to whisper stuff in the ears of the people with power.
Climate change is real and the more we delay the solution, the more urgent and extreme the measures to swing it around will become. And that means to start breaking the warm and cozy positions that many corporations are in -- and enjoy the lack of supervision of.
- Buy less stuff. Corporations produce waste because we buy their stuff. Get the stuff you still buy from more environmentally-friendly companies, if possible.
- Political action. Corporations need to be regulated and that can only happen through political action. Lobbies may have a lot of power, but in the end, it's the citizens who vote.
Individuals are in the end the drivers of corporate actions because they are the consumers.
It's not necessarily about buying less stuff but about changing your daily actions and about buying only products you consider environmentally friendly.
Corporations will produce what sells. We decide what sells through our individual choices and actions.
Edit:
We can also make it quite plain to corporations: For example, why not ask coffee shops/takeaways how they plan to pack our order before we actually order then walk away if we don't like the answer? If many people start to do that I'm sure things will change fast.
This is becoming harder and harder with time. Believe me, I would love to buy my kitchen stove, washing machine, refrigerator, aspirator, air conditioner and vacuum cleaner from a local manufacturer. But there are none. How many household brands do really exist and how many are actually known and bought by almost everyone?
Additionally, even if you are an idealist who wants to be the change they want to see, you will still need a bunch of tech gadgets to connect with the world and try to change it -- like a good smartphone and laptop that don't suck. Not every $100 piece of trash will do the job. And the cheaper tech might have actually had much more negative impact on the planet's CO2 footprint.
It's very complex and thus no black-and-white solutions exist.
Some corps like Apple and Samsung seem hellbent on testing the customers' patience with higher prices every year and it will definitely bite them back at one point. That much is true.
> Political action.
Never in my life, not once, have I seen citizens voting actually change anything of significance in a country. Have you? And we're talking less than 10 years here. "These things take time" seems pretty shallow and empty as a justification for things not happening.
I gave up my car more than a decade ago. I haven't owned a vacuum cleaner in years. I live in a cheap rental with a wood floor. We strictly enforce taking shoes off just inside the front door to prevent dirt from being tracked in so we don't have to clean as much.
I currently live in a hundred year old building that doesn't have air conditioning. I'm interested in buying a home. Once I get a home, I will likely do what I can to use passive solar approaches to keeping the place comfortable with a minimum of electricity year round.
Passive solar design relies heavily on things like insulation and thermal mass. It tends to produce higher comfort levels than forced air heat while being cheaper in the long run.
Unfortunately, passive solar works best when it is incorporated at the design stage of a building. There are limits to how much you can retrofit a building with it.
I don't assume that the culture we have currently is the one we will have in the future. I have spent some years working to design the kind of life I want rather than just accepting that the way my life was is all that will ever be.
I own a lot less than I used to. I have a higher quality of life. For one thing, my life is no longer being consumed by cleaning and maintaining a giant pile of possessions, so I have more time for having a life.
Intended as food for thought.
Best.
I do part of these things already but (1) it's a gradual process, (2) I have a ton of other issues to deal with first so I cannot religiously purse lesser CO2 footprint (like personal health; it takes precedence over other venues), and (3) I am asked to trust other organizations -- f.ex. that throwing away stuff in certain trash cans helps the planet (which I don't mind at all; surely it makes some difference).
I agree that owning less things equals more peace of mind. But I am not quite there yet, I am still in a very active and hectic phase of my life where I am gradually correcting a ton of past mistakes. I do aim to have less in time. I came to feel the increased stress from more possessions.
What I am saying is -- thanks for the insight. I am on the same road but not quite so far ahead as yourself.
I'm on this path because of health issues, not specifically looking to shrink my footprint. That's more like a dude effect.
Most rentals in the US have wall to wall carpeting, which I loathe. I'm so thrilled to be in a rental with a wood floor. That's tough to find in America, especially on a tight budget.
When I gave up having a vacuum cleaner, we were in an apartment with wall to wall carpeting. It's horrifying stuff and we felt better with giving up the vacuum cleaner and finding other methods to try to keep the place tolerably clean. I've since seen articles that indicate studies show that vacuuming actually spreads germs. It may pick up visible dirt, but it makes germ control worse. That's a bigger issue for us than visible dirt. We concluded vacuuming was a health hazard years before I saw articles about such studies.
So, what I'm saying is my current situation is basically a dream come true after years and years of wanting something like this. It took a long time and a lot of little choices along the way and a lot of awkward stages where we decided "We are simply not doing X anymore. Period. Because X just doesn't work." before we had any idea what we would do instead. And then we would scramble and come up with imperfect and frustrating alternatives and muddle through.
But it did get gradually better.
Tossing that out there in hopes that it helps you with the path forward. The road ahead may not look like a road at all. You may not see it until you look back on it.
Best.
Do you mean in the US?
Examples that spring to mind in other countries are: gay marriage equality (Australia), independence (East Timor, plus probably others... Scotland and New Caledonia rejected independence by plebiscite), conscription (Austria), abortion (Ireland), migrant intake (Hungary) etc... and of course Brexit.
Buy used, it's totally worth it!
> Never in my life, not once, have I seen citizens voting actually change anything of significance in a country. Have you? And we're talking less than 10 years here. "These things take time" seems pretty shallow and empty as a justification for things not happening.
Start local. National politics is a distraction anyway; it's your city and state politics that matter. Our town, through a popular measure, banned fracking in the city limits. We got sued and the ban was struck down by the supreme court, but now we pay oil companies to stay out of the city limits. It's money the town spends because its citizens want to stay healthy.
Now there's a statewide proposal on the ballot today that does a similar thing (https://ballotpedia.org/Colorado_Proposition_112,_Minimum_Di...). Our town contributed to this proposition. Political action at a local level works.
Thank you.
I am happy for the places where it works. Not sarcastic.
People around here are just realists because no significant changes ever comes before people get that fed up. Civil discourse and constructive discussion has so far netted us nothing but dossiers and people landing on dissident lists. This happens to this day.
No need to be snarky.
Hey, do you live in Prague https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenestrations_of_Prague ? Don't let the czech mentality get to you, people there complain just for fun.
It's easy to write us off Eastern Europeans as "complaining just for fun" though. Many do but when you get to the bottom of it, real change happens extremely rare. And that's a valid argument and a historical background to have.
But regular-complainers and realistic-no-BS-folk often get conflated by external observers -- to my despair.
I'd very much like to but there really are no such local vendors. :(
David MacKay
Reducing power consumption and reducing the number of items we buy and eventually throw away is a start. Pushing politicians to make the hard choices is also part of the fix. But saying someone else has all the power, therefore, I can't do anything or I saying I can only do a little therefore I won't bother is not.
An analogue: committing a crime is punishable, inciting it in some cases may be. It is the companies who dig up fossil fuels and use them --- "consumers told me to do it" is not an excuse that absolves from responsibility. Those trading in fossil fuels do what they do on their own accord, for financial gain, and hence carry the responsibility.
The problem is that the change in behaviour that this demands is great: ever thought about selling your car? or paying twice as much for a new electric car?
Anyone who has told you smartphones are a significant consumer of power doesn't know what they're talking about.
I'd like the world to start attacking the source of issues top-to-bottom and not bottom-to-top.
Can the citizens help? Absolutely. Will they amount for much unless corporations start taking action? No.
Are you willing to?
I'm not throwing away my PC, or MacBook, or iPhone, or iPad, or 35" 144Hz display that consumes 200W. I actually need them and they actually help me live a better life.
But sure, I do use less napkins compared to 5 years ago. And I don't have a car (which is insane to have when you live in the center of a city anyway).
You'll have to clarify what do you have in mind with your question though.
If you change your lifestyle significantly, you are not just a blip in statistics. Your actions rub off on other people, your vote supports the right people, and with enough time you help the right mindset to prevail.
Besides, presuming you are not climate change skeptic, what other rational choice do you have?
But no, I'm not gonna go out of my way to religiously pursue smaller CO2 footprint at all costs. I try to make small differences but anything that severely inconveniences me is a no-no and always will be.
At least I'm not pretending for the sake of feeling good about myself.
I've taken to boiling the required amount of water in the kettle when I boil rice or anything similar. It's much faster, too.
It's also a good idea to boil a full kettle once in a while, and pour the remaining boiling water you don't need down the drain. It helps break up fat deposits and kills bacteria that cause bad-smelling drains, and the environmental impact is much less than using drain cleaner. And for the love of your drains, don't pour grease in there!
Which is ridiculuous because every electrician will tell you that your home-grade fuses and the switchboard of your house/block handle such loads quite well without much additional strain on... anything, really.
I quickly wrote her off as a virtue signaller back then.
I am not a law regulator, I am not a technician, I am not an environmentalist. I buy tech because it helps me save time and effort in my busy day. It's the corps and the governments responsibility to make sure the tech is eco-friendly, not mine.
* that my car doesn't do 70mph in 20mph school zones * that my gun doesn't go off when I'm pointing it at someone innocent etc.
> I buy my tech fairly, I don't see what else I could do.
Have some personal responsibility and seek out eco-friendly tech to buy.
Why such a huge strawman?
> Have some personal responsibility and seek out eco-friendly tech to buy.
I do have personal responsibility. I work, I don't dodge taxes, I buy stuff with my own money. I try and research but most of what we hit on the internet are PR pieces. But I won't research for 1 month something that I might need tomorrow.
So, in a sense, boiling water with gas has less externalities.
EDIT: You can of course also argue, if we can't have powerful appliances why bother with electricity at all. I'm just saying it's not an issue that can be so easily dismissed
The regular citizens have put the work to buy the TV device, and continue to put the work daily so they can pay the power and cable bills.
What else would you have them do? They work hard and maybe the TV is their way to unwind. Why, again, is the citizens' fault for putting the work needed to buy their entertainment device and then making them feel guilty for using it?
I pay electrical bills. In my eyes I do my part of the bargain, the rest is their problem -- that's what we pay for, to get a stable service while they sort out the details. A fair business transaction.
Then why are you even commenting in a thread about what can you do about climate change? Let someone else figure it all out and send you a bill!
I am talking about most eco tech articles that I've seen -- they are a blatant PR propaganda and rarely informative.
I mean seriously, how far will the guilt-tripping of citizens go? When will it stop?
People who take/propose such small steps might later start thinking about other means to improve their footprint on the planet that have a bigger impact. They might start to identify themselves as people who care about the environment. They might start spreading the idea to other people. And one day maybe they will say hey I ditched an electric kettle and made a compromise and what did you do, what are the big corps doing?
So I hope you engaged the teacher in a positive tone and proposed how we can all have an even bigger impact.
"i switch off all the bulbs and recycle all my bags. i should be able to buy that nice SUV i want"
Which effect, identifying with environmentalism or i-do-enough-ism, is stronger takes research to find out.
As I mention in a different comment, individual action is important. However, there is a large difference in effectiveness, and promoting obviously ineffective ones isn't going to convince people to do the ones that are likely to be effective.
But you have to wonder.
Your theory seems extremely likely.
Do you need to use that much soap? Do you need to keep the lights on everywhere? Do you need to use a tumble-dryer or could you let your clothes air dry instead? Do you need that shiny new phone or is your current one good for another couple of years?
Yes, all of these are absolutely small things individually, but put together and done by many people, it does make a difference.
A big thing you can do individually is to Buy Less Stuff. Be happy with the TV you have, don't change your wardrobe just because of fickle changing fashion nonsense, don't replace stuff that works just fine. Break the cycle of consumerism. Don't support the polluting corporations.
The very biggest thing you can do is to be politically active. Vote for pro-environment politicians and parties, be part of political initiatives.
That's not what this advice was, though; the advice was specifically to use less soap when doing the dishes.
This is critically important, but the mindset of the population need to change for it to be effective. If everyone have the same mindset, things will start to change.
Imagine doing a simple thing like reducing your shower time by 25% or reduce your TV watching time by 25%. With enough people doing it, its impact will be significant.
Things like driving less, flying less, eating less meat and buying/throwing away less stuff are things where individual actions can actually make a difference.
Watching less TV doesn't accomplish anything other making you feel like you are taking action. If you want to make a small change that will actually accomplish something, try taking public transportation or biking to work one day a week or eating vegetarian one day a week.
Is there some data on the actual scale of individual vs corporate pollution / climate-changing faults? Hard to measure, I guess.
A dedicated minority that genuinely cares about an issues can shift the agenda, even when the majority is largely undecided. When I invite 3 vegans and 7 omnivores to a party, food will be vegan (similar point by N N Taleb). I hope this works out just as well with political parties..
"But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came...to bring to ruin those ruining the earth." -- Revelation 11:18
It's interesting that the human tendency to "ruin the earth" is still a problem 2,000 years later.
Given that scientists are now saying we're close to the point of no return on climate change, I don't have much confidence humans are going to turn this around...
If this problem was listed in a 2,000 year old book, and we're still "ruining the earth" in 2018, I'm not convinced humans as a species are going to have a sudden change of heart in the next 10 years...
Just saying..
This is the thing that still gives me hope. Try to do good, and people will notice - and, without so much as telling others to something, they will emulate you to some extent. At least, that's what I've anecdotally observed.
The other side of this is important as well: you don't necessarily need to be a leader in everything that can be improved. However, if you see someone taking the lead, being the first follower can get a movement going, and is less effort than leading the change to boot.
Even my parents started eating meat a lot less, basically only for big events and startet using oat milk for their coffee!
Are you and they using honey or white sugar from farmed sugarcanes? For the environment sake I wish that vegan diet would include honey as it has a big net-positive effect on the environment compared to farmed sugarcanes by not causing eutrophication or water pollution, and helps with pollination both for wild forests and agriculture.
Locally harvested? Great! But likely not the bulk of supply.
Supermarket honey? Transported from Goodness Knows Where -- very likely China or Chile, where the bees are intensively fed... (you guessed it!) sugar! That's why the honey is so flavourless, not to mention the Carbon footprint of all those honey-kilometres.
Bees are almost as intensively farmed as anything else, and, while the effects and outcomes are nowhere near as severe as other forms of intensive husbandry, the honey is not necessarily the pure and innocent product you might think it is.
But for honey in particular I would say its is even more important to buy locally. It is better, safer, and better for the environment. Mixed honey has none of the unique taste that specific environments can create (my personal favorite is pollen from mixed coniferous forest, preferable with a gps coordinate to the hive). Imported mixed honey also share the same problem that plague olive oil, which is food fraud. Because honey is expensive it often get mixed with cheaper syrups or worse stuff. From a ecological perspective it is also good if the colonies are in areas that need pollination, which locally harvested usually are. Bonus points if its a small business by someone personally invested in it.
As for costs, the difference in prices from cheapest to expensive locally produced ones is normally for me about $1-2 dollar per jar. It such a small increase that just the security against food fraud is worth it (assuming you trust the local producer).
Thankyou for pointing this out. I say the same about almond milk and other products hyped by vegans that are pollinated by bees. The commercial beekeeping industry is horrific. Part of the reason wild bee colonies are collapsing is because of the diseases cultivated by commercial colonies.
I'm a backyard beekeeper myself and can say with at least some authority that there's nothing at all "vegan" or "moral" or "natural" about the way these commercial operations treat the bees and the environment.
I understand folks like bees, see them in a kindly light. But they're little automatons with maybe a neuron or two total. If we raised them, crushed them and ate them, it'd be no different from how we treat other insects.
> Part of the reason wild bee colonies are collapsing is because of the diseases cultivated by commercial colonies.
So if another bee comes at the cost of multiple existing bees, that's a problem.
The scale is my assumption, but the point appears clear to me.
Would you say that the average bee farming is causing more harm to wild bees than the average sugarcane farmer?
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/people-and-culture/food/t...
If that sort of 'stigma' goes away I would imagine a lot more people would be going vegetarian/vegan.
The worst things that could happen to the environment would actually be whatever happens that results in a surprise cold spell. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age was such a period.
If there is a cold snap, that will likely mean MORE coal burnt in Europe, which will put greater amounts of carbon into the atmosphere, and when the cold period ends, even worse greenhouse affects.
There is virtually no situation in which carbon removal will be anything other than a net gain. We need to start removing carbon ASAP, irrespective of whether or not we can, collectively as a world of 7+Billion, reduce emissions.
The carbon removal side of the ledger is the one I think we can make meaningfully changes in fastest and with the least controversy.
However, I think it's an important side, because it's a side that will increase support for initiatives like the ones you mention.
Would ee propose individual action when less dangerous situations occur in society? Say, a bank run is imminent. Does individual action work? Does the government broadcast it on the 8 o'clock news and do the people stay at home or do they run down the bank nonetheless? We do not propose individual action on other matters but we expect individual action to work on climate change.
Don't regulations come into play? In the EU, inefficient light bulbs have been phased out [0]
In France, we have free energy market since 2010 [1], with some players [2] focusing on green energy, etc.
Diesel & gas (for cars) prices are sky-rocketting (taxes !! [3]). Not cool for people who don't have the choice to keep using their old cars (students, unemployed, etc.) but the goal is to make combustion-engine cars so expensive they become unattractive.
[0] http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-09-368_en.htm : On 18 March 2008, the Commission adopted a regulation on non-directional household lamps which would replace inefficient incandescent bulbs by more efficient alternatives (...) between 2009 and 2012.
[1] https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFT...
[2] https://ekwateur.fr/offre-electricite : I'm a happy customer
Even if you are totally correct, it's irrelevant unless (A) you can maintain democratic support for such collective actions, or (B) you get rid of democracy.
In the US at least, even the democrats don't propose climate regulation strong enough to have a measurable impact on the climate over ten years. People will absolutely resist the moment energy prices go up notably, which will be necessary to measurably affect climate.
The problem isn't that collective action needs to be taken, it's that sufficient collective action won't sufficiently be supported by voters. That's why Democrats aren't proposing it, and that's the actual hurdle that needs to be overcome.
I think there are other reasons why Democrats don't propose strong climate regulation, such as the large donations they receive from people in fossil fuel.
There is already very strong democratic support for collective actions. Think of all the climate marches, the protests and occupation of DAPL, anti-fracking movements, etc. People who strongly support collective actions way outnumber the people who oppose it. It's just that those who oppose it have all the political and economic power in our society.
The Liberals in power are collaborating with Conservatives and killing collective action solutions by engaging with respectability politics. One is not allowed to protest except for at very specific times and in ways that are chosen by those in power to be acceptable. Any protest that gets too rowdy is decried by both sides. The only other way you are allowed to resist climate change is by buying the expensive stuff in the green packaging rather than the other stuff.
I think people will say they support collective actions right up until those collective actions actually affect their lifestyle. That's why even a lot of democratic policy efforts have been geared toward subsidies instead of reducing use. Much of the populace genuinely is OK with someone else's money being spent on solar, wind, and EV credits. When it means they can't afford to fly for their annual vacation, it's a different story.
Yes. A lobbyist who wants to avoid new legislation to control climate change, but still claim they care about it.
Strikes and large protests are not encouraged in mainstream discourse and the principles they represent are not available as an option to vote for.
Environmentalism as a philosophy isn't all that coherent, and this suggestion in point 8 really encapsulates the heart of my problems with it. If we are saving the planet "for" someone else, who are they? If we are saving the planet for ourselves, do minor actions of deprivation make sense? The extreme logical extension of the philosophy in point 8 that isn't "if I care about the future, and if all life is equal, I should remove myself from the gene pool and build a society that doesn't value the environment".
Taking a practical view that we want to preserve the world for, say, 3 generations into the future, answers like nuclear starting 30 years ago make a lot of sense.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question, but there are billions of people in the world already, and another few billions that will be born in the next little bit regardless of our individual actions. Do those not matter much? Does it have to be something "of your own" in order to make it worthwhile?
> The extreme logical extension of the philosophy in point 8 that isn't "if I care about the future, and if all life is equal, I should remove myself from the gene pool and build a society that doesn't value the environment".
I don't quite see how you arrive from "I remove myself from the gene pool" at "build a society that doesn't value the environment". Is it because you don't have someone to raise and tech who will carry your values forward? If so, then there's a good alternative: Teach someone else, be a mentor, get your message out to other people who are not your dependents. Sure they may not adopt your philosophy entirely, but then again, even one's own kids will make up their own mind and you're only one of many influences.
Moreover, by influencing people who already exist out there, you'll make a direct (hopefully positive) impact compared to the baseline of you not being involved in any way in the first place. If you have a kid to "build a society that values the environment", it'll be a net win for the environment if (a) your kid offsets its natural carbon impact by dedicating a significant effort to climate action, (b) same goes for any of their descendants, and (c) they make up for the time that you could have spent on climate action instead of raising your kid, such as mentoring or getting involved in politics. Building a society that values the environment isn't worth much if the outcome is still a net negative.
I feel that "continuing my legacy" is a widespread desire among hopeful parents. It's important to recognise that if your legacy is mainly to raise a child without making much of a direct contribution otherwise (because raising a child is a heck ton of work) then it's not unlikely for your kid to do the same. How long do we want to pass down the baton until one of those descendants makes a sizeable contribution by themselves? And how many lives will have been created, producing carbon and love and all, in order to get there?
I think there's a great deal of power to multiplying one's own efforts and get others to carry on one's torch, but really, having kids is by far not the only way to do this.
Let me give you an analogy. Is teaching meaningless? I mean, why do it, when you're not going to be around when people you teach will run things. You're trying to give advice to someone else, without being sure that they will follow it when you're not around.
So, I posit, not having kids and working on resolving climate change is useful, just like it is useful to teach or do your job properly to be an example for further generations doing that job.
You might be underestimating how much personal benefit a selfish materialist can wring out of teaching people things.
I, for example, love teaching people basically anything I know. To the point where I'm probably unhelpful. There have been numerous instances where there is a skill gap between me and someone else that I have closed and benefited greatly from closing. Usually this is in academic and workplace settings, but I suspect most parents would also see this dynamic. It also works socially when they return the favour and find some interesting idea for me in return at a later time.
If they don't follow my advice, that is often even better for me in the medium-long term because it suggests my advice is bad and I get an opportunity to correct my mistakes and misconceptions.
One of the most fortunate outcomes of the modern era is the more you want to maximise your own material success, the more advantage you can get from maximising the ability and resources available to those around you. I've been led to believe that a sample of most serious leadership groups will pick up an unusually high concentration of clever sociopaths - I suspect at least some of them will be excellent leaders because they figured this little factoid out.
The scenario is extremely different from someone asking me to give up driving because someone else will hypothetically benefit. As an interesting anecdata, I gave up driving because of economic and safety concerns, which are far more convincing to me personally.
See:
1) I, myself, my spawn, any reasonable proxy for me. a human?
2) Wish, desire, seek, want.
3) to live, life. continuance. reproduction, etc.
See, we are currently trashing the entire ball we live on:
1) too many of us. We did a good job at the whole "Go forth and multiply" thing. (talk about an incoherent philosophy: how about "the underpinnings of our civilization" for 2 points.)
resulting in:
A) loss of biodiversity. We killed the other animals
B) a HUGE footprint (land area) required for making our STUFF
C) hubris. we think OUR STUFF and OUR ECONOMY (read: make-believe silly nonsense we pretend is real) is more important than LIFE itself! The hacker news crowd is extremely guilty of this, as many people live in a simulated screen reality so much that they forgot about the wetware underpinnings of LIFE. your life.
2)We have no sense of collective responsibility, no sense of collective existence at all. It's not the squirrels fault that you can't understand why sustaining life on earth might be a worthy goal.
Collectively speaking, humanity is a dud. We didn't manage to organize anything with regards to our collective selves. We just ignorantly pursue selfish aims because some 18th century English "economist" (phlebotomist?) told us about "invisible hands"...
Maybe you should devote your vast brainpower to explaining the coherence involved in justifying industry and human "civilization" thus far?
They will be dead anyway in a few years, and their species also in a few MYr. Do you value their continuity more than our own?
Last time I checked, a lot of planets in our galaxy, I doubt squirrels have that much inherent value.
These are basically Malthus talks, with people suggesting to take straws who gets to live and who does not.
There are parts of the world (for example, Africa) where population has been increasing ridiculously fast for decades and the estimates are that this will continue. A lot of this is thanks to the financial support from the West. When there's news that the population of Japan is decreasing people talk about it as if it's a catastrophe. But Japan is very densely populated right now and I think they'll be fine either way (maybe some short term economic struggles, but they won't go extinct).
These topics can be politically taboo, but they shouldn't be. These issues are too important and long term effects can be catastrophic for the environment and the general quality of life on Earth.
Africa is big, so it's a very coarse way of narrowing down a location. Population pressure is a multiplier, so people in poor countries with few cars and a diet that does not depend on cross-country transport of food have a smaller impact on environment than fewer people accustomed to a more expensive life style.
> When there's news that the population of Japan is decreasing people talk about it as if it's a catastrophe.
An aging or decreasing population can be a catastrophe, but not because of environmental effects; the concerns are of a social nature, as a shrinking population usually means a reduction in essential services. The one child policy that was active for years in China has left a characteristic mark on the demographics, leading to a small population of young people supporting a large population of old people.
There is no meaningful "average" child, or average lifestyle, to base the last column on.
No, I'm not implying that we shouldn't decrease population, just pointing out energy inequality.
Also the chart severely underestimate the impact of diet.
At least with the Prius-style hybrids, though, regenerative braking isn't the only advantage:
* The engine is an Atkinson cycle, which has better thermal efficiency than a typical Otto cycle engine.
* The electric motor is providing torque off the line, so there is no need for a torque converter (which reduces efficiency).
* The engine can be completely shut off when cruising at low speeds.
* The power split device (PSD) is more reliable than a traditional transmission, reducing maintenance costs over the lifetime of the vehicle. (it is much less labor intensive to replace the battery than to service the transmission)
The advantages add up when driving around town, but at highway speeds, a 3-cylinder or small 4-cylinder non-hybrid will often have better gas mileage.
While I agree with your sentiment, I think it's dishonest to not mention the fact that diesels were absolutely dominating until the rules were changed in hybrids' favour a few years back.
At least in my plug-in hybrid I get statistics on that. I have driven it 80% on electricity with average fuel consumption of 2.0 l/100km the 16 months I have owned it, that include 2 longer trips of 700km with average fuel consumption of 4.0 l/100km and some charging problems last winter. The car have 200hp, so would have been a lot more if not hybrid.
You would not be looking at efficiency from a energy/$ perspective, which is what industry power generators care about, but rather energy/ton of CO2, which they rarely care about.
(I also find the argument hard to believe, but I'd be interested in seeing a proper comparison)
Further to that, I'm not sure it's a good idea anyway in many cases if you're worried about sustainability of the human race and our current lives - if we all stopped having children, society would pretty much collapse. Who's going to look after us when we're old? Clearly we don't all need to have 12 children, but 0 won't work either.
The goal of combating climate change is to make the planet more liveable. You don't achieve that by not living.
It's not some moral game of attribution of blame, it's just maths. Fewer people produce less CO2.
That, or we end as species. Guess what? Worst case of global warming, mankind extermination. "Best" case, also mankind extermination.
Talk about premature optimisation!
If you are unhappy with the level of education of the public, then try to work on that instead of feeling encouraged to spread your superior genes.
I recommend Carl Zimmer's latest book "She Has Her Mother's Laugh" for a look at the past and the present through the prism of heredity.
The only deep change that an individual can do that will make an actual impact is going vegan. Adding solar panels to your roof is not a drastic change, in fact in Australia it makes good economic sense. Driving an electric car is not a radically different experience to driving an ICE car. Telecommuting and working more days from home is, for many people, a desirable change to the way we work.
Once coal and then gas has been eliminated, 99% of new model cars are electric and lab grown beef matches the taste and texture a real cow the problem will be 80% solved. All of this can be achieved without a single person needing to change their lifestyle.
Short term: Build MODERN, waste reducing, nuclear (fission) plants. If proliferation is a concern, require the military be hired to protect them and the logs/supervision open to the public with short delay.
Long term: I like the 3001 / Gundam OO / generic scifi solution. Solar collectors. Point lots of solar energy at a focal location and do useful things with it.
"High-impact beef producers create 105kg of CO2 equivalents and use 370m2 of land per 100 grams of protein, a huge 12 and 50 times greater than low-impact beef producers. Low-impact beans, peas, and other plant-based proteins can create just 0.3kg of CO2 equivalents (including all processing, packaging, and transport), and use just 1m2 of land per 100 grams of protein."
Shows Vegan and Ovo-Lacto Vegetarian neck and neck.
As another poster pointed out, in many areas living a pure vegan diet is far WORSE for the environment as you have to expend considerable CO2 getting the correct foodstuffs there.
There's also the open question about many countries where the land is only suitable for pasture as it's not arable.
I keep seeing this bandied about but it really feels like people pushing their ideology as the answer to whatever question was asked.
I was 'born vegetarian' and I struggled to eat meat. I tried my hardest and genuinely believed that if I did not eat meat like everyone else then I would end up physically weak, without a fully developed brain etc. I endured eating burgers in the belief that they were really good for me.
I never learned to cook the stuff and got over my fears of not eating meat. Laziness really, not wanting to have the hygiene problems of a contaminated kitchen. A few meat food scares (BSE) helped me to take the easy route (for me) of living without eating meat. Haven't died of a lack of B12 yet and I know plants don't have any need for B12 but we do.
Anyway, I have had time since the days of teenage fear to think more positively about what I do and do not eat. There are notable athletes, thinkers and Hollywood stars that are strictly vegetarian. My meat eating friends only seem to know of Hitler as being famous for being vegetarian but I know not everything in this world is black and white, just because Hitler didn't eat burgers doesn't mean that I should.
Now role models are all well and good, however, the history of food is far more fascinating and I really like understanding how we got here.
The Chicken Tax is what got me to do my own thinking on the history of food. My grandmother was the last generation to remember when chickens were not what you ate every day. There was a time - not so long ago - when people saved up to eat a chicken based meal, this would be Christmas or a birthday, as a treat. Chicken is now wolfed down as part of a sandwich, sat at the desk, not savoured or enjoyed in some special ritual as per seventy years ago. The farmers in the USA changed the game to the intensive farming we have for chickens, the Chicken Tax that petrol heads know of was the gateway for me to learn that story.
Eggs were not a year round product, there was Easter and maybe a 'second brood' later in the year. So even eggs - a substitute for meat - are not actually what we think they are, we have forgotten the seasonal aspect.
Then there is the the cow. For most of mankind's history with the cow the cow was a beast of burden with added milk. You didn't eat your cows in times gone past when a cow was more like a domestic appliance, for pulling the plough. Only if there was plague and famine would you want to eat the cow. Doing so meant harsh times.
The Dutch invented a new harness for the horse in the 17th century that enabled horses to pull the plough. This put the cow out of work so there was a change on the farm. At around the same time the guy that inspired Darwin and did all the selective breeding made cows into the beef product every burger scoffer so enjoys. The cows that pulled the plough were nearer goat sized, albeit podgy goat sized, hey were not these giant things we have today, stuffed with corn and killed before the diseases from their corn fed diet kill them.
Then there are the sheep. I grew up in an area where wool was what mattered. I have studied the local history and absent from it is any mention of eating lamb or mutton. The products that were shipped out of the area were wool, more wool and more wool. The world was getting clothed not fed.
Clearly our ancestors had many uses for the animals they lived with and every scrap went to 'good' use. Unless you were lord of the manor then game was off the table too. People were not at all well nourished with the chemicals we sprinkle on the land today - doors in old houses are only 5 foot 6 inches tall, they didn't need them to cater for 6' tall people.
I think it is really important to understand a little bit about how we got here and why it is that we think we need beef. The ethics of the slaughterhouse is divisive, an in-depth appreciation of history is not. Really we have been conned into believing so much of the modern life, tricked into believing we need things that we do not.
This is my own pet thesis, there is fact rather than myth that backs up the story. You can truly enjoy the fact checking though. For instance have a look at pastoral scenes painted by the grand masters of old. Cows are smaller, a lot smaller, and these are not errors in painting to scale. Children can reach out to cows without them the cow towering above. The history is right there in paintings that you probably had no interest in the first time you saw them and decided not to major in 'Art History'.
Same with the Chicken Tax related part of this 'thesis', along the way you can learn how the VW camper van became a thing - it was a tax workaround to put seats in the van so it wouldn't be a 'van'.
We also imagine Darwin started from a blank canvas, really that was not the case at all. Not trying to dismiss his work, but he was standing on the shoulders of giants too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bakewell_(agriculturali...
He was the chap who turned cows from beasts of burden to beef. His work was what Darwin wrote about to 'prove there is a god'. Yeah.
Also check out the humble turnip. The turnip made the British Agricultural Revolution possible, without the turnip there would not have been the British Empire as we know it. The turnip was a crop that could be fed to livestock, planted in the 'fallow' year it nitrogen fixed the soil making it good to go for other crops. Nowadays the turnip is just a Blackadder joke.
The Moldboard Plough was another part of the puzzle, the Chinese had this first, the Dutch copied it and they got it hooked up to horses. I don't have a handy reference for that, particularly how the harness worked. There is plenty to study though, Jethro Tull being an interesting chap for the 'seed drill' that ended this random scattering nonsense.
Dutch Golden Age paintings have the clues to the story in them, I have my 18 month old niece to help me research this, although she can't talk she is good at pointing at cows, in art and in fields. She goes 'Maggie Simpson' on me at times, I would not have spotted unusually small cows in paintings without her help and would not have gone down the rabbit hole of working out the why questions without her promptings.
So much of the politics of food is based on belief and opinion. Various diets are nonsense. I don't want another religion, I just want to understand. History gives the answers. And art history that has bored me to date comes to life when I am looking at paintings for things like how people ate, how big various animals are and what 'tech' was used on the farm. There is no longer a need to aesthetically decide if a painting is pretty or not, I find so much more in what I see when it is for this type of personal research.
Forgot to mention sheep - in the part of the West Country (UK) that I know the lucky mix of fortune that made the area prosperous included Fullers Earth, used to get wool nice and clean from grease etc. There were export restrictions on Fuller's Earth, so precious it was! The final product - cloth - ended up in those red uniforms that the British Army conquered the world with. The Cotswolds also had a lot of rain and very steep hills. So waterwheels and canals were part of the story. Plus the wonders of capitalism, with cottage industry making way for bigger mills and eventual decline...
I owe a great deal of thanks to some old people who are not here any more for taking the time to show me the relevant industrial archaeology. A retired gentleman who I used to deliver newspapers to as a teenager took the time to take me to local places so I could draw things for school history projects. In today's 'stranger danger' world where newspapers aren't delivered by 14 year old kids this type of thing would not be possible.
Only recently have I wondered, 'okay I know a bit about the wool, what about the sheep?' and wondered what amount of lamb/mutton was on the menu then. Nobody has studied that bit, so again I am in my favourite realm of history, where it becomes fascinating. It is so nice to escape the 'dull' world of people lecturing others to be vegan or not, to explore this realm of 'oral history'. I am glad someone out there likes it too.
they were
1. have one less kid.
I can maybe imagine a friend choosing not to have 3 but I can't imagine someone wanting 2 to go to 1 or someone wanting 1 to go to 0 for this reason
2. go carless
Sone friends live in a city that supports a carless lifestyle and already live carless but I can't imagine a single person I know giving up their car or moving somewhere they don't need it for for purpose of helping the environment
3. don't travel
zero friends would give this up. even the most eco "aware"
On a more serious note:
1. have one less kid.
I really don't like how this one is worded, I always read it as "get rid of one of your kids". Though, except going from 1 to 0, it's not that bad. I definitely wanted more than one, but I can settle with the one I have.
2. go carless
You get used to it. I even lived in small cities (~30k inhabitants) and while it's harder when your city isn't supporting a carless lifestyle (never lived in any that does that, sadly), it's definitely doable.
3. don't travel
Maybe a bit extreme to give it up entirely. But you can still travel less, do it with more eco-friendly travel options (carpooling, etc.) or go to destinations which do not require planes. I guess it depends on where you live, but in Europe there's definitely lots of wonderful places I can go to with a low carbon impact.
But I still am responsible for a lot more carbon emission than I should. I'm taking it slow (changing food habits, etc.) but there's still domains in which I am really bad (using too much tech, ordering things online..).
I'm working on an app to make a personal travel offset pledge and track your impact publicly. If anyone is interested in keeping in the loop on progress: https://www.producthunt.com/upcoming/pledge-balance
I used to travel for work, flying nearly every week. I quit, party because of the environmental concern.
A fully loaded 747 gets about 100 miles per gallon per passanger and takes a more direct route.
If you had a fuel inefficient van and four people for the same trip you’d like burn more fuel.
- Die. In large numbers. Preferably people from the developped world.
- The planet may maybe be able to afford half a billion developped world people.
There is a link to a Bill Gates blog post in the thread, look at it : agriculture (feeding people) is 25% of the CO2 budget, manufacturing+housing is 27%. Basically reducing these means reducing the population. That's the reason why having one less child is the biggest contribution you can do, short of dying.
Any volunteer ?
Like you are used to do it in something like 25 minutes with a car, even though there could be near-instant methods of travel available (it's science fiction but still to the point: when you don't have (or don't have any more, for some time) a better alternative, you can overlook many inconveniences).
e.g. hypothetically would you support a global carbon tax* priced high enough so that driving somewhere wasn't by default a sensible decision?
* supposing, hypothetically, we had some effective way of reaching such an agreement and enforcing it
And I don't mind effort, at all. I go the extra mile at home to use less kitchen paper. I use less chemicals to clean around the house. I reuse phone and tablet chargers, and headphones. I don't buy new computers often (current PC is 8 years old now).
I try and be disciplined. But I am no sewage treatment plant, or a plastic/metal melting foundry so I do what I can but not sure I am helping at all.
I think many people misunderstand me in my bigger comment in this post: I try and help but (1) there's a line beyond which you are slaving yourself to supposed improvements you cannot see and so it becomes not worth it, and (2) I am asked to trust other organizations that if I throw away stuff in special areas then I am helping the planet. I don't mind #2 -- it's better than nothing. But I can and do mind #1 here and there.
It's not such an unreasonable stance as many make it look.
> Nicholas’s study concluded that having fewer children is the best way to reduce your contribution to climate change, with almost 60 tonnes of CO2 avoided per year. But this result has been contentious – and it leads to other questions. ...
> And we could ask if having children is necessarily a bad thing for solving climate change: our challenges may mean we will need more problem-solvers in future generations, not fewer.
Way to make the quantitative answer on this question ambiguous when it is clear that unless your kids will work or donate much more than average to climate change, they will add to the problem.
Just be honest and admit that this possible solution (fewer kids!) conflicts with your ideology.
All this warm-fuzzy nonsense about leaving the solution to "future problem solvers" is how we got here.
> The world can respond in three ways to signals that resource use and pollution emissions have gone beyond their sustainable limits. One way is to disguise, deny, or confuse the signals. Generally this takes the form of efforts to shift costs to those who are far away in space and time.
> A second way is to alleviate the pressures from limits by employ- ing technical or economic fixes. [...] These approaches, however, will not eliminate the causes of these pressures.
> The third way is to work on the underlying causes, to recognize that the socioeconomic system has overshot its limits, is headed toward collapse, and therefore seek to change the structure of the system.
Leaving the hard decisions to "future problem solvers" is exactly response #1, "shift costs to those who are far away in space and time", i.e. future generations.
http://donellameadows.org/archives/a-synopsis-limits-to-grow...
The planet’s population has doubled in my lifetime alone, and I may see it double again, and it could be pure coincidence that all the warning signs clearly track the human population (CO2 levels, sea temperature etc etc) but maybe, just maybe, there is some causation there...?
We could all have nice things if, a few billion people ago, everyone had decided to reproduce at replenishment rate only.
for example, i could become a vegan. if i did so, the net benefit to humanity would be positive. but i don't want to, as i'd have to privately pay the cost (no more delicious chicken) while the benefits (in terms of reduced global cumulative greenhouse gas emissions) are spread across the billions of the rest of you.
however, i really want you all to take individual action to limit your greenhouse emissions so i can benefit. go vegan, have fewer children, get your economies to install carbon taxes. yes please, i'd love the lot of you to do that.
i'm very willing to trade you something of value in return for you making lifestyle changes that don't locally benefit you.
how do we make this kind of trade happen? how do we make this kind of collective agreement to change behaviour happen faster?
"i'm very willing to trade you something of value in return for you making lifestyle changes that don't locally benefit you"
If it's true, then you can make the next small step. For example, for every vegan you have as a friend you can decide to eat less meat. Or for every friend without a car, you can take a bus once in a while. And so on.
That would be a valuable gift to these people, who decided to selflessly take the first step.
Being vegan means saying no to cruelty towards other sentient and intelligent beings and enslaving them for our culinary pleasure purposes.
So having a friend who is vegan wouldn't really eliminate cruelty towards chickens for example, as your craving for delicious chicken would still require chickens to be slaughtered, i.e. Is cruelty ok, so you can continue to experience culinary pleasures?
Tough questions...
Edit: mainly referring to factory farming and large scale meat industry, where most of the meat we consume comes from.
Personally I think we should be building more nuclear power plants as well as deploying giant battery storage facilities to store energy from wind and solar.
We should also start taxing carbon emissions. So advocating political change to achieve collective action seems like the only feasible way to do anything effective to me.
Yes, but not without developping the alternatives. For example, in France, the government decided to raise the taxes on gas and especially diesel — but at the same time, the small train lines are being shut down, so people living in the country aren't to happy.
If they don't like it, they could try to move to a city and swap their high transportation cost for higher rent.
On the other hand, if more and more people demand certain things, for example organic food, then it causes companies and politics to change their behavior. If nobody wants microplastic-free soap and shampoo, nothing will change. If 50 people per day ask in a supermarket for microplastic-free soap and shampoo, management might notice.
But then: One big supermarket chain in Germany (REWE) ditched plastic bags altogether for paper bags and reusable cotton bags. I don't know what caused this – customers asking for it, politics, or some marketing guy with a "go green" mission. But obviously, this has a much larger impact on the environment than educating the masses about "reusing their shopping bags".
In a way, "saving the enviroment" is something that starts on an individual level, but the real useful stuff is actually implemented through politics, laws, and ultimately corporations chaning their behavior (or forcing a certain behavior on the masses, like REWE did).
Edit: The question now is: What can I do to make political changes happen on an individual level? Is it really my behavior that changes anything? Or can I have more leverage in any other way?
https://thecorrespondent.com/4373/the-solution-to-just-about...
Nobody needs a brand new coffee table, when there are plenty of perfectly decent ones for sale second-hand.
While obviously well-intended, I fear this question might do more harm than good. The question stems (imho) from the fear of being helpless or the desire to be active, to do something in the face of a problem. The issue is that the desire to do good is trumped by the desire to feel good about yourself doing good. This might skew people to look for actions that are easy (therefor low-cost to feeling good) rather than helpful. For example I might decide to not use plastic straws, deliberately take shorted showers, and recycle and therefor feel good about doing my part for the environment. The risk is that doing negligible things might allow me to avoid doing the important ones. (I call these actions negligible because personal changes are hard to sustain, they don't scale, and the overall impact is relatively minute)
The important things were stated simply before the "Other than that", namely: "... system-wide basis – like revamping our subsidy system for the energy and food industries" and what people should be doing is "... putting pressure on their governments and on companies to make the system-wide changes that are needed."
That's it. Make it a political agenda. Everything else is (relatively) fluff.
Maybe the worst point of the whole article, here is my point of view : educated and people aware of environment change have fewer kids, people with the opposite way of thinking have more kids and have the same education. We create a world where the people who don't care outnumber those who care, since the most praised government system is Democracy the power goes to the number.
Path to idiocracy (great message for a comedy movie).
Are you arguing that climate change denial is a genetic trait?
More specifically: this fear is based on observed heritability of traits like intelligence, and also social status etc. While these are indeed hereditary, they quickly dissipate when considering more than a single generation.
These kind of articles are so misguided yet people are so hysterical they actually think the individual can do things.
There is nothing individuals can do that would actually help besides creating solutions to the ever changing consequences of the world we live in. Even if we by some magical event could stop all co2 emissions the climate would still change we would still need to move or fortify against changing sealevels for example.
But right now everyone is coming up with all sorts of irrational solutions to a problem that havent been properly defined and even if it was going to be as catastrophic as some have built themselves up to believe, flying less is going to have no useful effect.
Only way out of this is through the very technology that have created the cars, products etc. to begin with. The genie is out of the bottle and cant be let back in again unfortunately.
Science is never settled, but arrives at increasingly accurate approximations of reality. If climate science's best approximation is doom, the rational collective response is not ignorance, but simultaneously to explore and exploit (address) the problem. Exploration by better modeling of the climate, and exploitation by pursuing known best solutions to the problem. To use a personal example of a complex system, if a person should show signs of cancer, or a virulent disease, even if medicinal knowledge is not sufficiently advanced to flawlessly diagnose the symptom, drastic action even under imperfect information is very reasonable.
In the case that drastic corrections were not necessary with respect to the climate, this nevertheless furthers the global society's resilience and response for when such drastic correction is needed.
> These kind of articles are so misguided yet people are so hysterical they actually think the individual can do things.
Without contending whether or not 'the individual can do things', the article does not give me that impression. Whereas indeed the article advocates individuals to change their individual behavior, the article is written for an audience of many. When advocacy articles like these acquire a sufficiently large megaphone, like the BBC, they cause significant collective action.
> But right now everyone is coming up with all sorts of irrational solutions to a problem that havent been properly defined and even if it was going to be as catastrophic as some have built themselves up to believe, flying less is going to have no useful effect.
The problem is the recent increase in global temperature corresponding to the recent increase in greenhouse gas production. To use the personal analogy, the elimination of mutated cells causing the tumors.
> Only way out of this is through the very technology that have created the cars, products etc. to begin with.
I think that this is a very irrational or ignorant notion. Collective action plays a very important part in very many big problems. For example, the abolition of slavery and women' suffrage are made possible (in the former case) by technology, but collective action was needed to enable these events.
Some people echo the irrational notion you seem to express that that just because individual action is useless then so is collective action, and so therefore the individual action should not be pursued. But this is clearly not the case, since collective action happens. If it seems that most big changes are performed by organizations and institutions and not individuals, this nevertheless does not negate the thesis that collective action effects changes, since sufficiently developed and mature collective action tends to organize when able, so that they are more self-sustaining.
Not necessarily and that's certainly not settled. Kuhns paradigms is another way to think about it than Poppers idea of building knowledge as bricks that create a house. I am not convinced knowledge works the way we normally think about it.
Furthermore "climate science" is not actually following the scientific principles as it's not falsifiable for obvious reasons.
"Climate science" is metascience in the sense that it builds on and interprets data which has its own set of issues besides the issues with data modeling.
There are plenty of examples of mistakes, false predictions, cheating with the data etc. that anyone who wants to have an opinion on this should be really really really careful how much we actually can demonstrate vs. how much is speculated. Just taking it on faith that the scientific community is in agreement about a lot of the details is simply misguided.
There are plenty of theories around natural fluctuations even big ones like this (and bigger) so the trick IMO is not discussion whether humans are affecting it as we can't change that and will not change that, in fact, if we did it probably would lead to more death than the consequences of flooding and it certainly will lead to more poor people without any means to deal with the ever-changing climate.
You and others seem to be of the impression that nature is fundamentally friendly and safe towards us and we are destroying it, my position is that nature is fundamentally hostile and dangerous and that we are using technology to be safer from it. Yes, that has consequences but I take those any day compared to becoming paralyzed by trying to solve a problem that is many times more complex than any other things we have ever solved before. CopX is a great example of just how little our global initiatives help.
Flying less, eating less meat isn't the solution to the problem, more actual science, engineering and entrepreneurship and making people richer so they start caring about their close environment is.
>"Climate science" is metascience in the sense that it builds on and interprets data which has its own set of issues besides the issues with data modeling.
Yes, findings about climate are not reproducible in the straight and narrow sense of the scientific method, but there are methods to reason about these findings. Consider the utility of epidemiology, and how it informs medicine and health policies.
> There are plenty of examples of mistakes, false predictions, cheating with the data etc. that anyone who wants to have an opinion on this should be really really really careful how much we actually can demonstrate vs. how much is speculated. Just taking it on faith that the scientific community is in agreement about a lot of the details is simply misguided.
I take it that there is a broad consensus that climate change is man-made and that carbon emissions are very likely a huge driver of it. Many scientific professional organizations have issued statements about it. Many governments see the need to at least pay lip service to it.
> Kuhns paradigms
No, paradigm shifts help develop new and more accurate theory, but old theories still hold. Newtonian mechanics doesn't become obsolete even if a more accurate quantum picture has been developed. Even the primitive, less precise, yet intuitive Aristotelian notion of motion can be useful in many contexts, e.g. game physics that need to enable an unreal amount of control yet feel psychologically natural.
> in fact, if we did it probably would lead to more death than the consequences of flooding and it certainly will lead to more poor people without any means to deal with the ever-changing climate.
I don't see how the thrust of this statement is consistent with the immediate statement before
> IMO is not discussion whether humans are affecting it as we can't change that and will not change that,
> nature is fundamentally friendly and safe towards us and we are destroying it, my position is that nature is fundamentally hostile and dangerous and that we are using technology to be safer from it
I don't see how any general disposition of nature towards human society has any relevance toward my claim that solutions toward climate change must include an aspect that is not just technological products and services.
> Flying less, eating less meat isn't the solution to the problem, more actual science, engineering and entrepreneurship and making people richer so they start caring about their close environment is.
> Flying less, eating less meat isn't the solution to the problem.
I contend that they can be an important part of the solution to the problem. If it becomes sufficiently socially unacceptable, these activities will see a significant decrease. Many citizens already considers many activities taboo and immoral due to the influence of their society; online fraud, adultery, taking more than their fair share of an obvious common good when they don't need it; it is possible to frame excessive air travel or meat consumption as immoral.
> more actual science, engineering and entrepreneurship and making people richer so they start caring about their close environment is.
Similarly, I contend that collective agitation is important to enable the means that you cite. "more actual science, engineering and entrepreneurship" is enabled by voting for governments interested in funding research. The availability of science is enabled by the collective action of researchers and sponsors advocating for open access. The success and feasibility of entrepreneurship is enabled by voting for governments interested in limiting monopolies and anti-competitive behavior. The collective signaling of consumers that they are ready for alternatives encourage the establishment of businesses to cater to these alternatives, and to cater to them more efficiently. Without this signaling, one is less certain if there is a market for it, and hence such lines of business becomes riskier.
My second last point on societal attitudes argues against your position that an abstract notion of technology is necessary to tackle environmental problems. My last point argues against your position that it is sufficient.
Full stop.
And this is the most important misconception which most people don't understand. They actually think the science is settled and that it's provable through the scientific process.
It's not not by any stretch.
The problem is that this discussion, even the one we are having right now is mostly a politically based discussion not a scientific based one and yet non-scientists, people who have never even looked at the claims they support, will shame you for being a climate-denier for even suggesting it's not as simple as claimed.
The claims are much more extreme than what the science support.
"I take it that there is a broad consensus that climate change is man-made and that carbon emissions are very likely a huge driver of it. Many scientific professional organizations have issued statements about it. Many governments see the need to at least pay lip service to it."
But that's not what you actually find. The 97% concensus actually include the socalled climate deniers, think about that for a while.
You can't expect people to just buy something on faith when you can't actually prove your theory. Even if they are wrong, even if the claim about the consensus was right you can't actually expect them to just take it on faith, the very opposition of what science is based on.
Science does not actually build on consensus it builds on falsification if you don't have falsification you have something else and much less precise than science, yet it's sold as if it's not and as long as this is not acknowledged you will not be able to have a rational discussion let alone solution. You don't even have agreement about what the problem will be, only a set of potential outcomes which is what you do in scenario planning. It's not science. Geologists are scientists and can measure but the people interpreting the date ads a layer of abstraction, interpretation and errors that's so large that it's actually antiscientific to use the "science says" argument.
There IS disagreement, not even about whether the climate is changing but what it means and how much.
If you don't think many climate scientists play lip-service to their donors (the politicians) then you haven't looked close enough.
So there are all sorts of reasons not to just take anything by these organisations even if you agree that there is a problem and that the climate is changing. In other words you don't have to become a climate catastrophist just because you agree that climate is always going to be challenge to humans.
"No, paradigm shifts help develop new and more accurate theory, but old theories still hold. Newtonian mechanics doesn't become obsolete even if a more accurate quantum picture has been developed. Even the primitive, less precise, yet intuitive Aristotelian notion of motion can be useful in many contexts, e.g. game physics that need to enable an unreal amount of control yet feel psychologically natural."
No old theories don't still hold. They are still useful in limated scope but they don't hold as complete theories which means that things that might look like one thing isn't actually what it looks like.
In Newtons world speed of gravity is infinite, in einsteins it's not, in quantum physics non-locality “disproves” the speed of light as the most fundamental force.
Three different paradigms the two latter btw both proven to the extent we can prove things but fundamentally contradictory.
In other words, Newton + Einstein + Bohr accumulates but there are fundmaental shifts that completely changes the reality they are trying to explain.
"I don't see how the thrust of this statement is consistent with the immediate statement before"
What is it that you don't see? Are you going for a gotcha momement or are you actually trying to understand what I am saying. Can you be more concrete about what it is that you don't understand?
"I don't see how any general disposition of nature towards human society has any relevance toward my claim that solutions toward climate change must include an aspect that is not just technological products and services."
Because to understand why you won't find the solution by some human "cometogetherness/political" movement you have to understand why that won't happen.
"I contend that they can be an important part of the solution to the problem. If it becomes sufficiently socially unacceptable, these activities will see a significant decrease. Many citizens already considers many activities taboo and immoral due to the influence of their society; online fraud, adultery, taking more than their fair share of an obvious common good when they don't need it; it is possible to frame excessive air travel or meat consumption as immoral."
You can frame anything anyway you want right untill you have to live by that framing then it all falls apart. You have hundreds of millions of people if not billions who would do anything to become just a fraction as rich as you and me and do not care one ounce about their climate footprint and what you consider immoral. It's a position you can have when you have the choice and even then you are not actually able to keep it yourself as you are using some sort of computer right now and thus adding to the very problem you talk about.
"Similarly, I contend that collective agitation is important to enable the means that you cite. "more actual science, engineering and entrepreneurship" is enabled by voting for governments interested in funding research. The availability of science is enabled by the collective action of researchers and sponsors advocating for open access. The success and feasibility of entrepreneurship is enabled by voting for governments interested in limiting monopolies and anti-competitive behavior. The collective signaling of consumers that they are ready for alternatives encourage the establishment of businesses to cater to these alternatives, and to cater to them more efficiently. Without this signaling, one does not know if there is a market for it."
That's actually not even close to true which China is a pretty clear example of.
Nevertheless, these climate claims are consistent with what I know to be true: that ecologies collapse when there is a great change in temperature (even when geology is similar), that carbon is a greenhouse gas, that we are emitting it at an unprecedented scale, and that carbon in the biosphere is conserved. I haven't seen a compelling model that assumes otherwise that does not predict the existence of a system that we haven't yet observed. One has to make a risk-cost decision either way on imperfect information, and I think the more consistent and conservative theory and its associated greater costs is the more optimal decision.
> Old theories don't still hold
> They are still useful in limated scope
On the other hand, it is usually more likely that phenomena predicted after a paradigm shift have more limited application, due to the principle that more inaccessible phenomena are more difficult to exploit. Even with the paradigm shift, it only gives us more accurate predictions about phenomena that we already have, agreeing with it to a large degree in most human-experience aspects. Consider that quantum mechanics see less application than newtonian mechanics. The old theory still holds in most situations indeed, whereas quantum theory requires an intractable amount of computation to obtain predictions. Quantum chemistry see less application than traditional models of chemistry. Similarly, any new findings on climate change solutions are very likely to be tougher to exploit than current solutions. So I do not think it is rational to wait for a technological hail mary.
> you have to live by that framing then it all falls apart. You have hundreds of millions of people if not billions who would do anything to become just a fraction as rich as you and me and do not care one ounce about their climate footprint and what you consider immoral
I think I have given sufficient examples that disagree with what you are saying. With respect to less prosperous communities, it is often the case that they have a more collectivistic mindset and community and in fact live under more taboos. Consider superstitions, rituals, and religious dietary restrictions. Also consider the case of British society a couple centuries ago, where the aspirational class lived more prudishly than the upper class or the lower class, based on a certain idealistic gentility.
> That's actually not even close to true which China is a pretty clear example of.
I don't know which aspect of the Chinese economy you are referring to. The electronics part, where there is no lack of signal from the countries it exports to, or its investment in green tech, in which case we may consider the Govt. one disproportionately strong actor in collective signalling.
"I think I have given sufficient examples that disagree with what you are saying."
You haven't given a single one. You are talking about people who are already rich and can afford to moralize over what food they put in their mouth. That's a very different kind of people than I talk about.
"I don't know which aspect of the Chinese economy you are referring to. The electronics part, where there is no lack of signal from the countries it exports to, or its investment in green tech, in which case we may consider the Govt. one disproportionately strong actor in collective signalling."
I am talking about the fact that the chinese market isn't free and open yet does very well.
It is science; basic chemistry tells you that carbon is conserved give or take a few nuclear reactions.
> You are talking about people who are already rich and can afford to moralize over what food they put in their mouth. That's a very different kind of people than I talk about.
I address that in the same paragraph
>> With respect to less prosperous communities, it is often the case that they have a more collectivistic mindset and community and in fact live under more taboos. Consider superstitions, rituals, and religious dietary restrictions.
> I am talking about the fact that the chinese market isn't free and open yet does very well.
Thanks for clarifying, in part, but I still don't see how this is an argument against to my notion of collective action being an essential component of technological development.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Climate_Alliance
I might have a petrol car, but only use it once a month, or an electric car that I commute in 3 hrs a day.
Everything seems to be presented it terms of doing something 'less' or 'more'. I'm doing those things but I don't really have a good idea if I'm doing my bit, more than my bit or just making myself feel better.
And I'm not asking for one of those carbon footprint calculators that ask you how many times a week you eat meat, then confidently predicting that adds up to X tonnes of carbon.
http://tmrow.com/climatechange.html
Feedback is welcome!
I do not believe this to be effective. It's much better to show them value e.g. electric cars tend to be safer, because of the battery pack, instant torque make the car zippy and they're quiet. I was thinking about getting an aircon, but I'll get a celling fan instead. It's cheaper and doesn't require much maintenance.
Showing people value proposition is more effective.
Shifting the blame to the consumer and shielding corporates is toxic. The Carbon Majors report last year illustrated pretty clearly that 100 companies have been the source of more than 70% of the world’s greenhouse gas emissions since 1988.
Me going vegan and not using straws isn't going to save the planet.
That's it.
climate change isn't the problem, it's the second major global-scale symptom of the problem (the first one was the ozone layer). it's highly concerning! but suppose we manage to slow or reverse or mitigate climate change, at great expense, without addressing the underlying problem --- then we're going to have less resources to address the next global issue:
https://www.stockholmresilience.org/research/planetary-bound...
Encouraging people to marry later, have fewer kids, etc. seems like the real way to stop climate change.
the truth it's if you live in Europe or northern America you don't need to do anything, developing world it's polluting planet on such scale that our individual actions are pointless, so for starters China and India should stop their destruction of environment and then we can talk about doing something in western world
the article doesn't also mention scale at which are freight megaships polluting environment, compared to what it's flying nothing
Anything associated with a more exclusive and more expensive lifestyle is a no-brainer, of course. Organic, locally-sourced food is de rigeur. Sustainable fashion. How could you NOT? These ethics make life more fun. Also, when your lunch/shirt is sustainable, you can pass it off as virtuous discipline, but if it isn't, it's not really a big deal.
Solar panels are controversial. They're expensive, but they're also unattractive, and they're pretty nerdy, and even worse, they're technology. It's very hard for them not to be declasse. You can thread the needle with these if they're unobtrusive and you make it very clear that you never personally touch or operate them yourself. But there are so many other braggable efficiencies you can add to your house (brise-soleil made from sustainable wood!) that it probably isn't worth the effort.
Vegetarianism and veganism are out, because duh, buzzkill (how do you even brunch?) but saying you eat less meat is in, as long as you're eating some kind of artisanal, locally-sourced charcuterie when you say it.
Driving is in, of course. The alternatives are too much work, and it's very hard to make them look cool. So driving is an important thing to defend.
Cycling is the most visible threat to the virtuousness of driving. It's eminently feasible, unless you're elderly or differently-abled, and it's sweaty and very very hard to look cool (congrats if you look cool, and please fuck off) so it needs to be stigmatized. Luckily, you can lean on the stereotype of cyclists being (ominous voice) affluent white males who are privileged to have disposable income to throw away on expensive toys. Whew. Thanks to that, there's zero stigma for an adult, able-bodied person to spend twenty minutes idling their car a mile and a half home during rush hour. The alternative is supporting a sexist, ableist, and otherwise elitist solution, presumably at the expense of more equitable ones.
Same thing with scooters, except they're worse because they're tech. Techbros did this! Your car will always be in the street where it never blocks the path of the differently abled, and by contributing to traffic you're ratcheting up the pressure on that darned city government to provide equitable, egalitarian mass transit which when it arrives will make your 1.5 mile drive to work so much easier. An effective response to climate change has to be collective, and individualistic solutions just distract and dissipate energy from collective ones. (Don't worry. Nobody will use this argument to undermine your artisinal, locally-sourced charcuterie.)
You might think riding the bus would be even worse than cycling, but in reality, it's not really a threat, because it's so ostentatiously hair-shirt. (Rule #1: we're supposed to be enjoying ourselves.) Also, when someone else talks about riding the bus, it gives you a great excuse to show off your knowledge of transit issues when you explain how you can't ride the bus because service coverage is so awful and we really need to do something about this! They might be trying to shame you, but they're really doing you a favor. Because come on, the bus? Ha.
Taking your batteries and fluorescent bulbs to the hazardous household waste facility instead of putting them in the garbage? Nobody is going to bring that up unless they actually do it. Don't hold your breath.
Xeriscaping... this one sucks. It's impossible to criticize it, and worst of all, every time someone looks at your grass and asks if you've thought about it, you have to admit that you're renting and you're afraid that if you remind your landlord that you exist they'll raise your rent and price you out of the neighborhood.
Agitate and vote for the most left-wing party you can (that has a realistic chance of winning/influencing an election). Campaign for them to institute a ban on fossil fuels. Protest. Climb smokestacks. Make headlines. Break the law. If you work in the media, subvert their agenda as much as possible. Capitalism is crisis.
Of course, the BBC would never state these things. But given how little has been achieved in the last 40 years by playing by the rules, at this point they are obviously necessary, if not sufficient.
What's that got to do with the price of fish? The main left parties in my area still harp on about the coalmines. Then you have the Greens who are anti-nuclear, anti-Gm, anti-everything who seem to spend most of their time now involved in infighting over trans nonsense.
> we are still decades away from commercial flights running on solar energy
Offsets need to be a bigger part of the conversation. This article buried it at #10, behind a bunch of changes no one is likely to do. It is so incredibly cheap, they should have brought it up earlier in the article and give exact numbers in order to result in more personal actions.
I'll quote you some numbers to show just how accessible offsets are for people who fly. A rough estimate is about 1% of the ticket: - SF to San Diego: 68 cents - SF to New York: $3.87 - SF to Paris: $8.43
Driving is similar, to offset a gallon of gas it is about 9 cents, tack on 2-3% more than what you pay at the pump.
I understand that it isn't ideal to pollute then clean it up [0], but this is a much more practical solution than asking people to stop traveling. The cost is so low that just about everyone who is doing the flying and driving can afford it.
The concern is that by putting a price to clear your conscience for a bad behavior you will induce more of that behavior [1]. I would argue that personal travel isn't very correlated in this manner. How many people cut back their travel now because of their emissions? Very few. Would the average person who hasn't cut back suddenly start traveling more? Doubtful. It's not like they will suddenly drive for fun or it was factoring in on their vacation decisions [2]. So while I would be hesitant to put a price on all bad environmental behaviors, I think travel is safe.
> Social scientists have found that when one person makes a sustainability-oriented decision, other people do too.
That's good news! First make it easier to take an action, then make it easier for it to be public. That's why I'm working on an app that is a personal pledge to balance the negative impact of your travel.
While carbon offsets exist, they are an infrequent action that cost a lot at once, and are opaque. We will make it more frequent for smaller amount of money, give a scoreboard of your continued impact, and help make it visible for inspiring others to join.
If anyone is interested in keeping in the loop on progress: https://www.producthunt.com/upcoming/pledge-balance
[0]: YC recently asked for carbon removal technology startups. It will continue to get more impactful than simply planting trees, and those projects that prove successful will need money to scale. http://carbon.ycombinator.com/
[1]: Freakonomics looked at a daycare that added a small fee for late pick up. The rate of late pickups quickly shot up. https://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/15/books/chapters/freakonomi...
[2]: If anything, this vast majority who aren't changing their actions now would become more aware and cut back.