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Comment by jniedrauer | Hacker News Reader

> Really see how incredible all the people around you are. And I mean locally. ...the ordinary people around you scratching themselves out lives that seem to satisfy them. Become one of them.

This sentiment has very little actual substance to it. I'm dissatisfied because I want to do something meaningful. I want to leave behind tools that will better my species. I don't want my legacy to be solving a few bugs in obscure proprietary software. Why would I want to emulate people who are satisfied with a meaningless existence? I would much rather rage against the dying of the light.

> Most of the work will be unpaid, this is okay. A happy little flow of money is enough, because some money is really damn useful.

In a very literal sense, we trade life force for money. Money is life force. Telling people to work for free is doing them a disservice.

What exactly are you saying? Rip off the band-aid of ambition and stop trying?

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>This sentiment has very little actual substance to it. I'm dissatisfied because I want to do something meaningful. I want to leave behind tools that will better my species.

That's something 1 in 10000 or even less do. Why it would be you (or me for that matter)?

>What exactly are you saying? Rip off the band-aid of ambition and stop trying?

If you're not getting results, and spend year after year on "self improvement" skills to get to be Musk or whatever, why not? Enjoy life, nobody signed any contract with the universe that they'll be the "inventor" and "great artist" and so on.

What are you saying, the rest several billions that will not "leave behind tools that will better their species" are useless waste of potential, or just normal people living their lives, and it's the idea of this unlimited potential that is a dangerous and damaging americanism peddled by snake-oil self-help gurus?

(Heck, if the regular life of the species is meaningless in itself, then inventing tools to improve it, wont add meaning to it, just some conveniences).

>> This sentiment has very little actual substance to it. I'm dissatisfied because I want to do something meaningful. I want to leave behind tools that will better my species.

> That's something 1 in 10000 or even less do. Why it would be you (or me for that matter)?

One: because you think it will be you. 1 in N people do something meaningful. 1 in M people who think they will do something meaningful, end up doing so. M < N.

Anecdotal, of course, but so is everyone else here, so I'm not going to bother with proof. If you want to see what I mean, take a cue from what is presented as such sage advice upstream: look around you. Not many people are ambitious on a grand scale.

Two: out of the people who did something meaningful, few of them were helped by a "can't do" attitude. Even if not grounded in reality at all, you still need to have amibition, for that rare case where you do end up being the 1 in a million that does something meaningful.

Personally, I'm not a fan of this nihilist attitude so pervasive in cynical ex-geniuses. I encounter it a lot among formerly precocious children in compsci. It's negative, demotivating, and I regret ever taking this seriously.

So let me go on record to anyone who feels OP was talking you: the mere act of yearning to have a lasting effect on the world and on humanity makes you special. Forget the naysayers and the cynics. Leave the bitter undisciplined geniuses to their sour grapes. Go into the world and do what you can.

We need all the help we can get!

That's the key difference in viewpoint though:

>Two: out of the people who did something meaningful, few of them were helped by a "can't do" attitude. Even if not grounded in reality at all, you still need to have amibition, for that rare case where you do end up being the 1 in a million that does something meaningful.

Who says living your life, with its common challenges, etc, is NOT meaningful?

And that meaningful/happiness/success require some "superhuman" feats, millions in the bank, or whatever?

>Not many people are ambitious on a grand scale.

So? If I could change people's attributes on a grand scale, ambitious is not what I'd made them. More compassionate, more altruistic, more vigilant against BS, less polluting, more skeptical, etc -- there are tons of things I'd rather people be more than "ambitious".

If anything I'd say ambition is a surefire way to make people uglier, greedier, less tolerant and caring, more "me me me" (which in turn, hurts them too, because others are more "me me me" as well), less present for their family and friends, and ultimately (since only "1 in M people" end up really doing something meaningful), ambition makes them bitter, unhappy, depressed, and so on.

In fact the perfect recipe for the kind of self-absorbed and unhappy society we have now.

In the words of Radiohead:

  Ambition makes you look pretty ugly
  Kicking, squealing Gucci little piggy

> Enjoy life, nobody signed any contract with the universe that they'll be the "inventor" and "great artist" and so on.

On top of that, many of those we consider great did so in retrospect or late in life. I say, follow their example and enjoy the journey. Maybe you'll find that after you die you managed to do something important. Maybe not, but you'll have died doing something that's meaningful to you.

> and it's the idea of this unlimited potential that is a dangerous and damaging americanism peddled by snake-oil self-help gurus?

Whoa, whoa, whoa! You're down-playing one of our main exports there, buddy!

I will say, there is some wisdom in some of the those "self-help" ideas. They just beat you over the head with the same wisdom until you can't take it anymore and submit to their will.

stoicism encourages acceptance but I've always seen it as a form of defeatism past a certain point

a cowardly way to live with no ambition

When you try to do something ambitious, generally you spend the vast majority of the time as a stumbling amateur who is totally confused about the right thing to do.

If you don't accept this is what you are, then the day that reality spits in your face the truth that you are stumbling amateur who has been totally confused about the right thing to do, you will be crushed.

If you accept this is what you are, then the day that reality spits in your face the truth that you are a stumbling amateur who has been totally confused about the right thing to do, you will laugh and make the proper adjustments.

I guess the question is: When will you be truly happy? Will you be happy when you have helped humanity forward in any significant way? Or, will you be happy when you have good relations with the people around you and a generally fun existence?

Few people actually help humanity forward in any significant way and thus you are likely setting yourself up for disappointment. I'd even argue that setting more realistic goals makes you more happy and this simple fact increases your odds of helping humanity significantly forward. Think about it, when is your energy level highest? When do you wake up with that sense of wonder and awe and motivation? What are you telling yourself every day, is it truly constructive or just demotivating?

>>When will you be truly happy? Will you be happy when you have helped humanity forward in any significant way? Or, will you be happy when you have good relations with the people around you and a generally fun existence?

I will be happy when I can choose to work on what I want to work on, rather than what society tells me I need to work on in order to be able to continue feeding and sheltering myself.

In a sense, financial independence is what I seek, because only financial independence will allow me to put 100% of my energy into improving my community via endeavors that otherwise would not pay a dime.

And what if you can't manage to get financial independence, or ever be able to put "100% of my energy into improving my community via endeavors that otherwise would not pay a dime" ever, like 95%+ of humanity.

What then?

You'd spend all your life miserable because of it?

You won't divert the "self-improvement schemes/self-pity" effort towards whatever percentage you are left with for improving your community (even if it's like 20%)?

> You'd spend all your life miserable because of it?

Isn't this whole thing really about managing your own emotions? I'm reminded of Carnegie's "How to Stop Worrying and Start Living", and the underlying theme that whatever you want to do, worrying more than necessary to inform your actions is definitely not helping your chances of success.

This assumes that the happiness is the goal of existence. While true for some people, it does not mean that is a universal truth for everybody.

It does, since happiness is by definition the goal. What makes you happy can change (it could even be getting executed if it helps a great cause), but nobody is content with being miserable.

You're speaking for yourself.

Given a hypothetical button which could perfectly simulate the chemical conditions of self-actualization, do you think everyone would be content to use it every day and do nothing else for the rest of their lives?

>You're speaking for yourself

No, I was making a general statement that is tautological, and thus applies irrespective of any person.

>Given a hypothetical button which could perfectly simulate the chemical conditions of self-actualization, do you think everyone would be content to use it every day and do nothing else for the rest of their lives?

That would just mean that self-actualization for them involves struggle, and they don't want it in ready made form. But they still want their self-actualization (just not a pre-packaged medically induced one).

I already mentioned that for some self-actualization can even include being executed for a great cause -- you think those types would be the ones to content with medically-induced feelings of self-actualization?

> Few people actually help humanity forward in any significant way and thus you are likely setting yourself up for disappointment.

Few people do, but also few people even try. Do we have any estimate of the ratio between those two groups?

I'm strongly with 'jniedrauer here. I feel the same dissatisfaction. There are well-known open problems the world has at all levels, large and small. I would like to spend time working on those in a meaningful manner. I hate the standard life advice of "work your job, marry, have kids, enjoy yourself". It does not resonate with me, and never did.

> I'd even argue that setting more realistic goals makes you more happy and this simple fact increases your odds of helping humanity significantly forward.

That's a fair point, and I find even Tomminn's words about "not being a special person" right. Something I've been coming to grips with. Being the person that makes a direct, huge and positive impact on the world is mostly a matter of luck. But setting smaller goals should still allow to contribute with effort instead of just luck, and maybe even "create" some of that luck.

> Think about it, when is your energy level highest? When do you wake up with that sense of wonder and awe and motivation?

Not OP, but for myself - it's when I dream of Star Trek-level world. A world of honest & good-faith cooperation, of mastery of the environment through science and technology, a world that expanded to space. Correspondingly, my energy levels are the lowest whenever I have to grind out code for another CRUD app that exists mostly in a large-scale gambling that is startup industry, and that does not address any problem standing between us and the dream utopia.

> I guess the question is: When will you be truly happy? Will you be happy when you have helped humanity forward in any significant way? Or, will you be happy when you have good relations with the people around you and a generally fun existence?

That's a good question, but I think that it's not either-or. Seeing that you helped make a world even a tiny bit better is a long-term satisfaction thing. "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die" is fun in the moment, and definitely makes going through life much more pleasant. But - at least for me - it also seems incredibly empty.

> Seeing that you helped make a world even a tiny bit better is a long-term satisfaction thing. "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die" is fun in the moment, and definitely makes going through life much more pleasant. But - at least for me - it also seems incredibly empty.

Isn't the goal of making the world a tiny bit better about having more of the world be able to "eat, drink, and be merry"?

It definitely is!

When I say "it feels empty", I say that about my own feelings, and in the context of current world state. But I recognize that the ultimate goal is for more and more people to be able to just enjoy life.

What you find meaningful, others may not. It should in no way imply others are living a meaningless existence.

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