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Comment by fermienrico | Hacker News Reader

I strongly believe that being able to hire a top-notch industrial designer can change the entire course of the company. With Apple, it was Jony Ive and for Braun it was Dieter Rams. With IBM, they were the executives that had an impeccable taste in design which propagated from top-down. System76 is well positioned to be in this space to shall I dare to say - compete with Apple? Only if they invest in design. It sounds like a stupid non essential thing but design sells. When it sells, boy it sells; it makes the backbone of a company.

As it stands, System76 has mediocre branding and design in my personal opinion. Not great, but also not bad. I am not excited about the wooden trim approach integrated in the PC case. But, these things are subjective. If they nail ID, I believe they have a really bright future. When I say, hire a top notch designer - I mean, someone who can change the world type; not someone that they can just hire by posting a job ad. But, it has to start from the owners of the company. If they think Design as a cost center in marketing, forget about it.

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I like the wood, I think it is nice to see someone go a different route than copying Apple’s all metal, clean look. It’s a warm and organic look which feels fresh. I also suspect that the wood might help the machine dampen noise which would be welcome.

They also copied a page from Apple’s eco playbook and will plant a tree for every machine sold which is nice to see. A solid move given the company’s size and reach. I wish more IT companies would use that as a marketing move, it has good signaling value and helps drive change.

I’d like them to do even more with the wooden look and feel, but their cases are still not far removed from a typical desktop. I think it would be great to see them do something really small, in the Mac Mini style, but with that warm wood look. That would look great on any desk.

I’d also like to see someone Hackintosh those machines just for fun.

> I like the wood, I think it is nice to see someone go a different route than copying Apple’s all metal, clean look. It’s a warm and organic look which feels fresh. I also suspect that the wood might help the machine dampen noise which would be welcome.

I disagree with the idea of creating "fresh" and "trendy" design. In all cases, except say Fashion, it creates substandard design to cater to originality & staying trendy. Timelessness cannot be realized if your design philosophy is to try to stay "fresh".

What is fundamentally wrong with metal & clean design? The answer shouldn't come from the fact that "Oh shit, someone is already doing that, let's do something different. May be wood?". The answer should come from fundamental understanding of materials, their use, durability, haptics & touch, engineering needs (bend radius, coefficient of thermal conductivity, flextural ridigity, etc.) and DFM aspects. Everything else is decoration, not design.

As Paul Rand said, "Don't try to be original. Just try to be good."

Given that the modern trend in desktop cases is slapping a piece of plexiglass on the side, I don't think materials engineering has much to do with this field. Anyways, they're trying to market to hip companies looking to buy workstations, for which this is a good design.

I was just trying to make a general point in terms of the ID thought process that you start from functional/engineering needs and work outwards from it.

In the case of System76, they had to bend wood vaneer (poor bend radius) which probably added additional expense to the manufacturing process.

System76 Engineer here, who did a lot of work on the ID for Thelio. The veneer actually has a pretty superb minimum radius, depending on which direction you bend it. Bending with the grain for our particular veneer lets you bend around a 1/8" radius (about 3mm) pretty reliably. That's reduced a bit in our case since the finish is applied first (part of a cost-reduction), which limits it a bit, but Thelio uses corners that are pretty close to a 20mm radius, so that's not really a limiting factor here.

You can actually cut the stuff with a normal pair of paper scissors. It's pretty wild stuff.

a convincing argument is that it sells, and with the profits they continue to make good machines. I agree that the machine should function first - and clearly they accomplished that - but it's not exclusive to the human needs as well.

Convincing argument would be long-term customer loyalty by delivering value year after year after year in presence of strong competitive pressure. I wish System76 the very best. They're trying and that's worthy of a huge applause.

I can appreciate that view generally, but desktop cases have always been a veneer, provided they provide a decent amount of circulation. So why not spend some time to make it look attractive?

And although this isn't strictly the point you were making, wood is an excellent material to house electronics - it absorbs moisture and heat well, is extremely durable, it is a renewable resource, and while it goes in and out of fashion through the decades, its consistently attractive when used judiciously. This desktop case probably just has a sliver of wood panel which exempts it from these benefits, but I hope in the future we will be able to use natural materials more effectively, perhaps even to make the computer hardware itself.

>What is fundamentally wrong with metal & clean design? >The answer shouldn't come from the fact that "Oh shit, someone is already doing that, let's do something different. May be wood?".

Nothing is "fundamentally" wrong with it. In fact we have gotten to a point that laptop chips can function just fine for many tasks in suboptimal chassis because they are fairly efficient, let alone desktops. The reasons to choose a different design as a customer at least are personal. In my opinion the minimalist industrial design is overused and interacts poorly with my brain. In the absence of any design elements on it I find the products bland and with little character. I have a hard time remembering another glass/metal phone or another bland-painted building with aluminum stairs. Apple knew that years ago and imo it's probably why they stuck with the iphone 6 design for so long, so the market floods with it and thus it becomes memorable. The iphone 10 has more glass and the notch, so in a way it's scaling back the minimalism, closer to the iphone 4/5 era when the phone had a few more geometric elements on it.

In my opinion what is missing from every modern design, be it the applesque industrial or google's kitsch "throw all the colors that don't mix together, remove all textures" material design are little things that make the product memorable. Ideally these come from quirks that add usability or from the materials used. In a different era with a more limited materials available choosing the right thing for the job meant more diverse products. A macbook today is not more memorable than a razer blade or some other copycat. The same goes for chinese phones and iphones. I've confused an iphone with a cheap android replica so many times. Industrial design works when you are the only player doing it. But apple is not.

Product design is a relatively new thing and it is going through the same phase that architecture did with modernism and brutalism( and post modernism probably too). But this endless streamlining and simplifying of devices is not as positive as designers want us to believe. At some point they'll run out of stuff to simplify that people will buy and will try to differentiate by going to the opposite direction or just stick with brand recognition. So while I don't think a wooden pc case is the end all be all of design I'm glad s76 is doing something different. And this kind of change always comes from the "alternative" underdog.

Timelessness cannot be realized if your design philosophy is to try to stay "fresh".

And has anyone achieved timelessness? Ever? I cannot immediately think of any industrial design which does not feel either "current" or "dated".

Craftsman homes, in my opinion are timelessly beautiful.

> I’d also like to see someone Hackintosh those machines just for fun.

In fact, not sound as bad. Is necessary to get more details of the hardware to check compatibility, but could be a great option

The problem is not the wood. The wood may be a good idea (or not).

Imho, it's just that the case does not feel nice. While reading the specs, you have the impression that they have good engineers, that they carefully select components and design the air flow... but the whole case is still not there. As if someone made a draft and stopped there, carrying a "good-enough" tag.

I agree with the GP: They would benefit from an outstanding designer, and that comes with CEO blessing and will.

I was looking to build a computer recently and was disappointed to see that virtually every cabinet looked like a cabinet

Not that there is anything wrong with it, but there has been so little innovation in PC design for so many years. Everything is still dominated by LEDs and sharp edges and some desire to appear "techy"

It's like we're still living in an era where computers are a novelty, not just another thing in the house

You might be interested to learn that there is a community of people creating unconventional cabinets. What they do is known as “case modding”.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_modding

As for why most cabinets look so similar outside of that, I’d say it is probably at least in part thanks to such designs being the best we have in terms of airflow and ease of access to components within.

Agreed, I've always preferred the plain box approach to PC building but it's getting harder to just find one.

Coolermaster served that role for years but seem to have vanished.

Recently I ended up putting nearly £2K worth of equipment into one of these.

https://www.corsair.com/uk/en/Categories/Products/Cases/Carb...

It's quiet, neat and doesn't have a glow in the dark multi colored LED anything anywhere.

Antec has cases in this similar style, sleek plain black with good tech inside. Like the P110: https://antec.com/product/case/p110s.php

When I was shopping for a computer I was actually disturbed by all the LED-enabled boxes with pseudo-scifi-militaristic bulging edges with a "spaceship" look and especially that window on the side. Of course, some people like that kind of stuff, this is why they sell such things. And why not, it is a matter of aestethics, but it is just not for me.

Eventually I decided on Fractal Design's Define series, they have variants with and without the windows. Now I have a Define RS 5 Black (without the window!) and it is a great quiet case with many details, such as keeping dust out with meshes and vacuumable mesh filters.

The System76 case looks nice, my initial impression was that it looked almost like a quality speaker with a kind of walnut finish. On further examination, it did not look so great, unfortunately. I'd like to see that tree part replaced with a dark metal-bluegrayish matte metal or something.

There are quite some Lian Li cases which don't have a plethora of LEDs. Mine has, I believe two: one for power, one for HDD. Neither of these are connected. The front panel lid can be closed. You end up with a case which has dust filters and can fit many HDDs. Not that it has many HDDs (it has one SSD and one HDD); I have a NAS instead.

I ended up buying a Lian-Li PC a79 (http://www.lian-li.com/pc-a79/) because it was basically the only case available on the market into which I could fit at least 3 IcyBox disk encloures - basically all other cases nowadays have fancy stuff at the front which prevents the installation of disk enclosures :(

(another good one was Sharkoon REX8 or its predecessor T6 Value but both aren't apparently produced anymore, bah)

Lian-Li is one of very few case ODMs that still make sensible looking cases. They supplied all of our (System76) cases until Thelio, and there's a bit of inspiration from them in the design.

I want the old IBM PC that was sitting on the side with the monitor on top. Ideally in the old colors with ports and a hotpluggable 3.5 inch drive in front. But I would take it with wood as well.

I love how this Cryorig Taku looks: https://www.google.com/search?q=cryorig+taku&client=safari&h...

This is perfect. Exactly what I envision modern PCs to look like

As much as Jony Ive did for Apple, some of the things that I absolutely hate about where Apple is currently is all from how much control Ive has been given. The as it exists "current" MacPro. Current in quotes as it has not been updated in 5+ years. It is Ive's "revolutionary" design of the system that has trapped them into this state. The fact they did a mea culpa on it was quite shocking from Apple. Also, the current state of the MacBook Pro series. Yes, thin/light is a nice aspect in a laptop, but I personally feel they are making them too thing. Add a couple of extra millimeters to the thickness of the case, but keep the mainboard at it's current size. That now allows space for ports like an SD card reader or USB-A type plugs. In the extra space, add some extra battery space and/or allow for better cooling.

As a long time Mac user I agree. My 2011 MacBook Pro is nearing the end of its life, even after ssd and RAM upgrades. This month I’m buying a System76 Gazelle to replace it. Been waiting years for Apple to deliver a laptop that meets my needs but they’ve gone the opposite direction I wish they would.

>System76 is well positioned to be in this space to shall I dare to say - compete with Apple? Only if they invest in design. It sounds like a stupid non essential thing but design sells.

Going into an organic artsy & crafty direction vs. high-end industrial design like Apple is a good choice if you support the DIY spirit (e.g. Linux & open source), it's more authentic in that context, and you won't be compared to Apple or perceived as imitation of them.

It's also a good alternative to the cyber futurist gamer look that dominates the PC industry.

> As it stands, System76 has mediocre branding and design in my personal opinion

I don't know, it's looking better now than some generic boxes you see from big name companies.

Many of Ive's early iconic designs were straight lifts from Dieter Rams. Ive wasn't even subtle about it.

https://www.cultofmac.com/188753/the-braun-products-that-ins...

I agree, and it should be doable even for relatively small manufacturers.

Just to quote two examples:

https://streacom.com/products/db4-fanless-chassis/

https://www.cirrus7.com/produkte/cirrus7-nimbini-v2/overview

I'm currently waiting for their first kickstarter batch to ship in the upcoming weeks.

http://www.louqe.com/

looks good but the grate at the top... doesnt all the dust just fall in ? More so than on side grates

Not really, I've got my water cooler fan on the top grill of my case so the hot air flows up. What happens is the top gate gets covered in dust because it's blowing up and out of the case. I have to clean the top more often than anything else on my system.

Maybe because i'm a woodworker, but I LOVE the wood trim :D

I'm not a fan of the dark wood; it makes me think of every piece of consumer electronics made in the 1970's.

But I like the lighter wood. It feels almost midcentury modern.

More importantly, someone's made a tower computer that doesn't look like something from a 10-year-old's comic book collection, or every Wintel box made since 1993.

sooo, the maple option?

Yes, it's the first desktop PC I've seen in years that I wouldn't want to hide away in a cabinet.

That was quite literally the goal from the beginning. Make a computer that one would feel ashamed to hide in a cabinet.

Ive had quite a few of their laptops, still have two Gazelles. The physicality of these cleo oem boxes is really really bad.

But the value of the compute power for the buck was top notch. Also, their support was always stellar. Ill certainly buy form them going forward, just wish the gazelles had more physically sound chassis.

So, i would just want to get my hands on a thelio to test out. If System76 is listening, how bout getting a base model to me to review here on HN. :-)

strongly agree.

i am looking at this laptop:

https://system76.com/laptops/galago

it's obvious these guys took their design cues from apple's laptops, but they've paid about a tenth as much attention to the details as apple would. unnecessary bumps and blemishes, odd discolorations here and there, couldn't be bothered to do anything about that hideous rectangle at the top of the screen where the camera is located, etc.

i am contemplating a career move (no more ios development) that would mean i am free to leave apple's ecosystem. if some other company could make laptops as beautiful as apple's, without duplicating the mistakes apple has been making over the last few years, it would really grease the skids for me.

The thing there is, a smaller company can't really afford to build things the way Apple does. The economies of scale just aren't there, so they often have to stick to cheaper ways of doing things.

System76 does not even design any of their laptops, they are all (currently) rebadges of Clevo machines. They do plan on releasing original designs with in house manufacturing at some point.

My understanding is they work with Clevo to design new machines and then both companies sell them.

They don't, at least based on their community manager's response to a comment of mine on reddit. They are the biggest clevo client so they get a say on putting linux-friendly parts in the mainboard but that's it. My understanding is that clevo machines are linux friendly mainly because of s76's influence on them.

There are excellent laptops that aren't made by Apple. I feel that Apple's advantage there was lost at least a couple years ago.

At the top of that list I would probably put the Dell XPS 13 , and it can be bought with Linux. HP (Envy/Spectre) and Lenovo (x1 carbon) have laptops that look to be very high quality, but I don't have personal experience with them and they don't ship Linux.

ID is one path to one kind of success. I dare say System76 is charting a very different path.

I find this thought process unsettling.

For one, ID is not a mutually exclusive endeavor. If a company has A, B, C and D. Adding E, in this case - ID, only adds to the value of the company. Good ID never diminishes it.

I am comparing System76 with 70's IBM, Apple and Braun in my original comment. If IBM didn't pay attention to design - sure, they'd be successful probably. But ID has only added to their goodwill and brand name. Unfortunately, it is no longer true with IBM today. :-(

Executives that pay attention to ID and its value create a direct unspoken visual link with their customers. Customers notice the smallest details, perfection in every aspect of the product and they realize & get the impression about company's dedication towards other non-ID related things. Stripe does this really well. It is even more critical for a physical product that you touch and feel. ID is sort of like a short-cut of communicating the abstract concept of quality to customers. It works brilliantly as a marketing tool as well as a tool to deliver actual measurable benefits to the customer (ease of use, clarity in operation, aesthetic appeal, etc.)

Minimalist ID is by far the cheapest way to achieve good details. Mixing 2 or 3 materials together and getting them right is even harder. ID has been done to death and has stopped amusing me for years now. This is why I think the direction s76 is going is much, much more interesting. Wood on a desktop computer is a good idea( ignoring the execution), but a laptop with 2 or 3 materials mixing would be even better.

Sigh. I guess I wasn't explicit enough.

It turns out, if you are manufacturing original products for mass production, you are doing ID. So yes, there is no path to success manufacturing original products without doing ID. I wasn't implying one needn't have ID any more than your comment implies one needn't have engineering.

What I was referring to your comment about "hire a top-notch industrial designer" to produce distinctive designs of impeccable taste.

Yes, products with exceptional ID will sell in major ways.

It turns out, that products that are exceptional in a lot of dimensions sell in major ways. Products that are exceptionally inexpensive sell in major ways. Products that are exceptionally marketed sell in major ways. Products that are exceptionally well engineered sell in major ways.

...and if everyone is employing exceptional ID, then doing so yourself doesn't actually make your product exceptional.

And no, customers don't "notice the smallest details, perfection in every aspect of the product". There are some products that certain customers fetishize and absolutely do notice this stuff, but the vast majority of products people interact with on a daily basis barely register.

I agree that ID is a short cut for communicating quality to customers. Sometimes you shouldn't take the shortcut. Sometimes it's better to take the long way around.

Great ID can work brilliantly as a marketing tool as well as a tool to deliver actual measurable benefits to the consumer. Great engineering can do the same. Having a unique value proposition (which I'd argue is System76's case) can do the same.

There's more than one kind of market success and more than one path to market success.

I think you have some valid points. There is a lot of crap out there today that doesn't have good ID and it sounds weird to say but doesn't need ID. If you're selling utilitarian objects, for example, construction materials: Nuts & Bolts, Screws, I-Beams, Dry wall, etc. None of that stuff needs any ID - as you said it would be all about whether the object functions or not. Good engineering is what it needs, I agree with you there.

Don't you feel that there are a lot of products out there that are not designed well? They're just slapped together, molded shut and ready to mass market? ID would just be a one time NRE cost if they don't use expensive materials.

If you get a chance, do catch the "Dieter Rams" documentary by Gary Hustwit. I thought it was amazing and you'd I think enjoy it.

"Don't you feel that there are a lot of products out there that are not designed well?"

I do, but I feel the same way about engineering. Curse of high expectations.

Industrial Design is the discipline within the design field that deals with the physical design of products/hardware. It's not a genre of design itself.

Yes.

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