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Comment by xenadu02 | Hacker News Reader

How are they not going to go out of business when cheap Chinese competitors copy their open source design?

I think this misunderstands System76's business. Today they are selling rebranded Clevo laptops so they are already facing cheap Chinese competitors... and yet they stay in business because what they are really selling is Linux certification, branding, support, warranty, etc.

Exactly this.

I bought one (an Oryx) to replace a macbook because it comes all set up and ready to go (no driver problems, no tinkering needed). I know it would have been cheaper to buy a machine and install linux on it but its a lot of extra work. I'd honestly just rather pay them to deal with it.

I'm using there OS (pop!) which is Ubuntu based, and works fine (although I'm not sure why they have there own OS, it gave me pause frankly, they have Ubuntu as well). It works well and seems to have updates quite frequently.

I really like the machine, its had no problems and has been easy to setup and use. There are some minor things I don't love, the battery life isn't great and I have to reboot to switch video cards (the laptop has 2 and only one supports external screens).

But jetbrains software works and the web works fine, so I'm pretty happy.

>although I'm not sure why they have there own OS.

I think this makes sense. Their core bussiness is producing an integrated Linux hardware/software package. When a compatability issue comes up, they probably don't want to have to wait on a third party to resolve it; especially when they can still leverage most of the work that said third party does (and; I presume, contribute back their work).

Anyone can hold any status in Ubuntu regardless of who they work for. This is explicitly stated in Ubuntu's code of conduct which doubles as a sort of constitution. They could be Ubuntu developers themselves; then they wouldn't have to "wait on a third party" to resolve anything.

They could contribute, but still have to go through the process to push any changes. This is the same reason that Ubuntu maintains a fork of Linux.

Yes but anything that goes into Ubuntu needs to work on all systems, not just System 76 devices. This would like reduce the realistic rate of change, even if they were (co-)maintainers of all the relevant packages.

Not necessary to upstream packages to Ubuntu Repositories when they could set their own repositories (which I assume it's how they mantain their distro)

It's a matter of branding. Which is great too as long as they keep up to date with security updates and such.

I don't think Canonical would look kindly on someone shipping 'Ubuntu' with 3rd-party modifications to critical system-level packages, at least without participating in the Ubuntu Desktop certification program.

I also use POP!_OS, pretty awesome actually. I have found it to be a really great experience, and I am not sure if this was just fluke, but the installation process was mega easy. Non of the usual wifi driver issues I got with Ubunutu.

Yeah I'm running Pop OS as well. Interestingly, it has the best Optimus support out of any distro I've seen thus far. It installed without issue and allows me to switch between graphics via a GUI (albeit requiring a reboot).

The only issue I have with Pop is the name... and I guess that's something I can get over given how well it works. :)

How is the noise like, compared to the average modern MBP?

Its not loud, but its not silent either. You notice them running, but not so much to be annoying. My 13 MacBook pro was usually quite quiet except when pushed. Its noiser than that.

The fans run a lot, (especially when using the Nvidia graphics). I tend to push the machine a little though.

pop os allows them to apply their own branding, and they also use their own installer that's more tailored towards OEM installations (which makes sense, since they're an OEM and all)

Precisely. I bought from them because I know that Linux will work - and it did flawlessly. I am not even using their distro, standard Ubuntu or Kubuntu has no issues, and I can't say the same about many other laptops.

They sell Linux machines that "just work" out of the box. Think of them as the Macintosh of Linux. You can build a Hackintosh out of cheap Chinese machines and cracked MacOS versions. Virtually nobody does, because the reason you buy from Apple in the first place is that you want the convenience of an all-in-one solution that just works and are willing to pay a premium for it.

I used a Pangolin for my personal machine from 2013-2015. Replaced it with a MBP because I wanted to do some iOS/watchOS development, but it still works, and I still go back to it when I need a Linux laptop in a pinch. They're good, solid machines, and I could unbox it and boot up Linux without worrying whether some driver would be incompatible with the hardware.

I thought I would be getting that when I bought this Asus with Ubuntu pre-installed a couple of years ago.

Since then, the wlan drivers got replaced, disk encryption had to be manually fixed and video hardware acceleration was gone and required patching the distribution.

So much for Macintosh of Linux.

Good question. So many companies go out of business because of Chinese competitors undermining the R&D margins. But then again, somehow companies like Prusa Research have steadily increased in sales even after three years of Chinese kits flooding the market before he (Prusa) even started his company. I hope it's the same for System76.

I hadn't heard of Prusa Research before, which is odd considering I seem to own a 3d printer that's been manufactured by them.

I know where I will be getting my first sls 3d printer from.

I think you mean SLA printer? Prusa has nothing in the pipeline for sls, but they do sla.

to me it seems as though there is no precedent for it.

Compare to IBM. IBM created the somewhat open "PC" platform in the 80s. Within ten years there were dozens, maybe hundreds, of companies making "PC Compatible" computers. IBM stopped making PCs. Their platform "won" the marketplace but they, as a company, left the marketplace. IBM is still in business because their primary business was not making or selling personal computers.

Another comparison might be Google. Its a stretch because android is not a hardware platform as such, more of software. However Android phone is relatively open. As a platform Android has 'won' the marketplace. But Google's primary business is not selling phones or phone OSes. They make a handful of phones, and might stop at any time.

There was the 3d printer company. Makerbot. They were theoretically supposed to be open. However they, well some of them in the company, wound up deciding it was not possible because of clones. So they went closed. They also sold out to a huge conglomerate whose primary business is not personal 3d printers. I am not sure if you could say their 'platform' has 'won'....

So if I am right, then if System76 creates an 'open platform' then there will be Compatibles springing up all over. System76 'platform' might win the marketplace. But what will happen to them as a company? What is their primary business.

People mention Prusa. Maybe that might work.

IBM did not create anything, Compaq took it away from them and IBM failed to regain control.

There would be no open PC clones if IBM had succeed suing the clone makers or if PS/2 MCA architecture had actually worked out.

They did assemble a standard from off the shelf parts. Few things are built from first principles since the scientific revolution.

Without Compaq reverse engineering the BIOS and doing it in such a way that IBM could not release their lawyers on them, there would not be an open PC, regardless where those parts came from.

We would all be using variants of Atari, Amiga, Mac, Archimedes by now instead.

Which ironically is what laptops, 2-1 and mobile platforms have become.

> if System76 creates an 'open platform' then there will be Compatibles springing up all over...

The open platform already exists, they are merely a player in it. Perhaps they've brought some new hardware, but unless it is x86/64 legacy compatible there is little chance it will succeed.

They're selling trust, something even the high end Chinese (and many elsewhere) brands don't have.

Trust it's going to work, trust they'll support it and trust that it won't come with spyware built in.

Not that I know anything about manufacturing but from outside it looks like Apple's secrecy hasn't exactly prevented Chinese competitors from copying either.

Well that’s the thing, once you start manufacturing something in China, you’re sunk. Doesn’t matter who you are, your IP is going to be stolen, midnight shifts will produce extra units that won’t be going to you, etc.

Same reason Apple's survived this long: It just works.

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