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Comment by manigandham | Hacker News Reader

Absolutely not. Advertising is not bribery and the European region is nowhere near the freedom of speech principles of the US. It may feel the same, either because you have never said anything or have never been heard by anyone who cares, but there are countless examples of prosecution that would be summarily dismissed here in the States.

Professionally "banned" is not a free speech issue in the slightest. Athletes can do whatever they want, however they are still employees and if they want to enjoy their multi-million dollar salaries then they will need to follow the rules of their employer and the sports leagues. You will not be punished by the government for what you say, but you are not entitled to a job without consequences either.

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> Professionally "banned" is not a free speech issue in the slightest.

This line of reasoning never made sense to me. Free speech is both a legal and a cultural issue. A modern society cannot credibly claim to be free on legal grounds alone. Yeah, the government won't put me in prison or fine me, but if I get fired for being a staunch liberal (or conservative) then I'm not really free, am I? This doesn't just apply to rich athletes -- in most organizations in SF I would not feel particularly safe expressing what seem to me fairly moderate views.

Depriving people of their livelihood for expressing political views is absolutely a free speech issue. Perhaps not in a legal/constitutional sense, but a cultural sense for sure. There were plenty of stretches in the Soviet Union where they wouldn't imprison you, but would fire you for a poorly timed political joke. Starting down that cultural slope is a really bad idea.

The US Constitution also codifies freedom of association so you can have free speech but you can’t force me to associate with you. In the US companies have freedom of association as long as they don’t violate a protected class ( race, religion, sex, age, national origin, etc...). Since you the government can’t force a company to associate with someone they disagree with, you can be fired for things you say.

As it should be.

There is no shield in the first Amendment.

Just because it is legal to say does not mean it should be said.

Before you write that off, consider speech with built in impunity.

The shield is not there because there needs to be checks and balances on speech. While we do see unfortunate outcomes, review them. All those people had options.

People often cite the Mozilla event. It is not so often mentioned how a lot of people were going to leave.

Being a leader, in that example, carries with it some implications. People do not blindly follow in enough numbers to be a concern.

These are human dynamics. Legislating them, and or expecting people to deal en mass with others to the degree needed here is impractical.

There are risks and rewards in all aspects of life, very few sure things. We are nowhere near a state of society where it is possible to consider otherwise.

GP explicitly called out that there is not just a legal issue of free speech, but also a cultural one. Your response, "but it's legal!" in short, does not address that at all.

Lots of things are legal but maybe not what we want. I'd say a working culture where having the wrong political opinion can get you fired is definitely one of them.

Think that through then - what do you want the government do to in that situation? Start to police culture? How would that go? Are you sure that won't end in unintended consequences?

Who says I (or @coffeemug) is arguing for government action?

How else does it get done?

Do you have another way to police and enforce culture? What are you actually arguing then, since you claim the comments don't address your issue?

Depending on the state you're in it is, in fact, illegal to fire someone for their political views and is a protected class of sorts. (To varying degrees)

It's a very simple concept:

You are allowed to say things. You are assuming responsibility for, i.e. accepting the consequences of, your right to say things.]

Society is then free to cast you out if you say hateful things. You say this society is not free. This is meaningless to this society, it has chosen to operate on assumptions which are fundamentally incompatible with your behaviour.

The government does not define or police culture.

People are people, and they're free to act however they want, including not liking you for what you say. As long as they are not harming you or infringing your rights, then they are within their rights to do so. This is the price for the freedom you have to also not associate with people you don't like.

We already have anti-discrimination laws and protections but what you seem to be asking for is government to limit other rights and freedoms to protect you "culturally"? Do you not see how that is dangerous and far worse?

> Depriving people of their livelihood for expressing political views is absolutely a free speech issue.

I don't think free speech is the issue here. There's a difference between expressing your views on your own time and involving the company that you work for to adopt those views. We've all seen the disclaimers that people put on their twitter profiles and blogs distancing their personal views from the companies they work for. Such a disclaimer was not issued here. Colin involved the 49ers Franchise and the NFL in his political views. He used their broadcasts to send out his message. Not all the owners necessarily sympathized with his views, especially when it started bringing negative attention to their business. In that regard, I don't think it's all that surprising that it cost him his job.

Note also that there are plenty of current NFL players who express the same sentiments as Colin on social media and in interviews, and they still have their jobs.

Yes free speech means the government can't limit what you say (with some specific exceptions). It doesn't mean you won't face consequences or backlash or insults or derision from those in the civilian world who disagree with you.

Indeed. The EU and other Western democracies are far, far ahead of the US in many aspects, like health care, but free speech is absolutely not one of them. This just happened: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/calling-muhammad-paedo.... You'd be laughed out of court in the US for something like this, if you manage to find a lawyer to represent you.

> the European region is nowhere near the freedom of speech principles of the US. It may feel the same, either because you have never said anything or have never been heard by anyone who cares, but there are countless examples of prosecution that would be summarily dismissed here in the States.

In the other hand I think in most of Europe gag orders are much more restricted in scope and application than they are in the US.

First amendment seems to be interpreted broadly there, but not nearly as much as national security.

If campaign contributions never amount to bribery, then why do companies frequently donate to candidates from both parties? If it were for both some policy and it's opposite, those donations would cancel each other out.

The only reasonable explanation is to have the politician be indebted no mater who it happens to be.

And the Kaepernick issue can't be a mere employee-employer issue if the president claims to have gotten him fired by threatening the NFL with brand destruction[1].

And if the same group then calls the press the "enemy of the people" but defends receiving enormous donations as devotion to free speech seems, it seems disingenuous.

If, instead of you home country, say Saudi Arabia were doing these things, we would say they making great steps towards freedom.

[1]https://youtu.be/ryAxTqyFOwU?t=29

Not sure about other EU member states or the EU itself, but in Germany free speech is intentionally not a right, because of the German right to live free of abuse by others. Speech can obviously be used as a form of abuse.

Herewith article 5 of the Basic Law of Germany stating the right to freedom of expression, one of the several fundamental rights enshrined in the Basic Law right up front, before anything else.

* https://www.bundestag.de/parlament/aufgaben/rechtsgrundlagen...

Enjoy.

Thank you, I enjoyed it greatly. Freedom of expression (one's right to express one's beliefs) is not freedom of speech.

You might want to go back and enjoy what "Wort, Schrift und Bild" means a bit more.

> there are countless examples of prosecution that would be summarily dismissed here in the States.

Care to provide let's say 2 such examples ?

Articles from various perspectives with many examples within:

https://theintercept.com/2017/08/29/in-europe-hate-speech-la...

https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/03/17/europes-free-speech-apo...

https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2016/07/17113/

https://www.economist.com/europe/2018/01/13/germany-is-silen...

From the first article you linked...just...wow. Soo many U.S. progressives would suffer under that law.

> In 2015, France’s highest court upheld the criminal conviction of 12 pro-Palestinian activists for violating restrictions against hate speech. Their crime? Wearing T-shirts that advocated a boycott of Israel — “Long live Palestine, boycott Israel,”

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