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Comment by BeetleB | Hacker News Reader

>I always feel that freeloaders are not hurting me personally, so why harm them?

In my experience, over time, freeloaders tend to become vocal and lobby for policy changes (within the team, not corporatewise) that helps keep them there. I've seen them oppose technically sound decisions because they're not sure they can handle the complexity, or (and more commonly) because it involves skills they don't want to learn. Skills well within their reach if they just tried - some of them had those skills in school and they merely need to get a book and review what they once knew.

Generally, if you're a motivated person, but in a team with a significant number of "freeloaders", your ability to raise the bar of the team will be limited. I left my last team because of it.

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Ah I see, there's certainly a clear difference between our evaluation. If I see a whole team of freeloaders I blame the management team above them. At least in engineering teams it's super easy to have motivated teams because the people choose this career out of desire for working as engineers. Loads of freeloaders means there is no fruitful ground for motivated people to grow on. So they leave or turn into slackers, and some even might become toxic themselves. I don't blame the potatoes if they don't grow though, but either the weather or the farmer.

>At least in engineering teams it's super easy to have motivated teams because the people choose this career out of desire for working as engineers.

Where do you work and how do I get a job there?

I've only worked in big corporations - and I rarely see this attitude. Many people became engineers because it was seen as a way to make a decent living. The number among them who actually enjoy technical stuff (say, well enough that they would do it in their spare time if they had all the money in the world) is negligible. And then even amongst those, big corporations with mediocre management can do a great job of demotivating you. I've certainly been there - where I decide "Screw all this. At this point I'm doing it only for a paycheck (i.e. no job satisfaction). I'll just put in the minimum to keep my employer happy and use my extra time to do fun technical stuff at home".

In my experience, the "median" management helps you go down that path. You really need them to actively foster technical interest.

> Where do you work and how do I get a job there?

Western Europe country. I wouldn't suggest my company though. Where I currently work is Slack-off Fest 9000, but it's also a big corp.

Maybe you should check out meetups, hack fests, hackathons, coworking spaces, hacker spaces, maker spaces around you. There you can meet the real engineers. They earn maybe even just 50-75% of your colleagues. But they always give 120%.

And these also exist in big corps, but true, it's rarer there. The highest motivated engineers I see in big corps are people who don't care about engineering that much, but are certainly working their ass off to ship whatever stupid idea their manager had latest. The thing will not work in a customer environment, but it's good for a demo, and more does their manager not need.

I also led teams of engineers in the start-up world. Usually all you need to do is keep the political bullshit away from them, show them the sufferings of the customer, and provide them with enough money that they don't starve to death (and can afford 1-2 raspberry pis, and/or a nerf gun).

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