This is how you write a reverse job application | Hacker News Reader

This is how you write a reverse job application

thejohnnybrown.com

96 pointsJohnnyBrown36 comments

You know, I'm not particularly famous. I'm not the best engineer, software designer, or manager you will find. I am certainly not the worst of these you will find, and I enjoy my work and challenging projects; these are aspects that employers seem to look for in employees.

I have no angry blog posts demanding I am hired, no complaints about how my work is under-appreciated splashed on a news site, and no demo work thrown out to the world like a challenge. And so, it surprises me that people feel the need to do PR stunts to get recruiters to call them. Too many call me. I write at least one polite rejection a week—the worst it's ever been was 6 in a week.

I'm not sure what I'm doing right and these people doing wrong, but there's nothing magical about having recruiters call you. Put your name where recruiters look, and they will call you. But be warned, this is not as awesome as you might think... most companies are far worse at vetting how well you'd fit than you are. You end up wasting a lot of time.

Protip: timewaste comes not from the companies themselves, rather sneaky recruiters, who will, at some point in the conversation, offhandedly ask 1, to provide references (previous managers you've worked with), and 2, who's interested in you currently (usually dressed up as "how do you find the marketplace?" -type of questions).

Do not, under any circumstances, give out these datapoints early in the game (personally, I don't give them out at all, but I imagine some large corps to require at final stages). Recruiters will use this as lead-generation for potentials to sell candidates of their own. This will not only lower your chances in potential new places, but destroys your reputation with your existing clients.

For more information, see the book "Dirty rotten recruiter tricks" :)

I don't know about this. Something about Andrew Horner's reverse job application was amusing; I find this one a bit creepy. I find his demo application to be a disheartening demonstration of an oblivious sort of sexism that's all too prevalent in software development already. And using this to seek contract work (versus a FT job) also rings false; there are plenty of better ways about that, too.

What's more, the application needs work; this data isn't useful. Who cares where the ladies are right at this instant? They're not some foursquare-checking horde who zip from place to place en masse, and the statistics page (http://nolaladies.com/pages/statistics) shows just how few people use foursquare in New Orleans at all.

The implementation looks clean but I'll agree with you - it doesn't seem to have much value (and is a bit low brow).

I agree with the idea though. Showing results is better than talking about what you can do. As a gamer, I love to hear the stories of modders who get hired because of the great work they do working on something they love. They showed results, and someone is willing to pay them for the same work.

> a disheartening demonstration of an oblivious sort of sexism that's all too prevalent in software development already

I don't think it's a demonstration of sexism in software development, but a reflection of sexual politics in the real world. He built a product people want.

If he built a product that helped people file lawsuits, would anyone claim that it's a disheartening demonstration of the litigiousness in software development? Or if he built a project that helped people find drink specials, would it be sign that alcoholism is a serious problem for developers?

Let's be honest, this is an appeal for work, or maybe a marketing ploy of some sort. As an appeal for work it reads "I can be part of the boys' club." But a product people want? Please. There is not nearly enough Foursquare data in New Orleans to warrant this effort, and even if there was, can you identify the user that would look at this for more than a quick amusement? Ratio Finder (http://www.weeplaces.com/ratiofinder/) is better for actual planning because it shows historical data, not current trends.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to pop over to Imelda's Fine Shoes and hit on the only female foursquare user in all of New Orleans.

Just because the thing you want isn't feasible doesn't mean people don't want it. (Example: bullshit diet fads. There's no healthy way to drop fifty pounds in 30 days, but people still google for it, and then try it.)

And regardless of whether it actually works or not, I think it demonstrates a familiarity with multiple skills necessary for web development - working with APIs, hosting a site without it coming crashing down, writing HTML, etc., etc., etc.

Johnny is right in pointing out that this is simply called advertising, and is part of contracting. He's also entirely correct in pointing out that in the world of software all you really need to do is produce something.

I think the best way to go about writing a 'reverse' job application is generally "don't." Trying to copy The Oatmeal, adding in cute images, and other 'fun' gags to show you think freely (only when compared to an average 9-5er) doesn't make your software any better. Give me someone who wants to create software that they feel passionately about, and can also express that, and leave the XKCD comics at home.

The photographer Rick Sammon has said a few times "Before people care how much you know, they want to know how much you care." Personality is great in any application, but if you walked into an office with a comic strip, we'd point you to one of the city newspapers.

My industry background is primarily digital marketing and if you can walk into their office with good comic strips it's a guarantee of a great start. If you can produce something of quality comparable to The Oatmeal you'd have awesome chances of getting hired.

Creativity has its place but not as much in certain industries I suppose.

This person gets it. It took me a year after grad school to find a job I wanted. I tried a semester of teaching first, as an experiment, but eventually was hired when I could demonstrate the ability to produce new ideas.

That last article had me thinking the same. In one year why not demonstrate any sort of ambition or drive? Go out and make something. Unless you've signed a contract giving your current employer rights to all your ideas there's really no excuse. 4 hours a day looking for work, 4 hours hacking. There's your 9-5.

Maybe, but one of the first things I look for in a prospective candidate is open source contributions. That is what I consider an ideal reverse job application. You're benefitting the community and I get to see your code.

this.

Perhaps, not being in the situation, I'm being naive, but if you can't find a programming job, you should be putting your code out there for people to see. Contributing to OSS will give you valuable experience (to yourself and potential employers).

His Github profile is right here: github.com/thejohnnybrown

Didn't someone alredy write this app a few weeks ago? Wasn't it called Where The Ladies At? (http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/02/wheretheladies-at-shows-you...)

If you're applying for a job with this, I'd say one strike for ripping your idea off.

Good example of PR. This is a nice example of how you take a story that is fresh in everyones mind and ride on it.

  > Aside from the fact that hundreds of thousands of people
  > and businesses are doing exactly the same thing as him
  > (we’re called contractors and it’s called advertising)

Thanks for pointing that out. The internet does offer a lot of genuine cleverness. Reverse job application with quirky little drawings, though? That's like one of these Steve-Carrell-pseudo-indie-movies that Fox Searchlight keeps churning out.

Actually, Github may be the best place to write reverse job applications.

Doesn't it take additional proactive work, unless you write some awesome, popular software?

Works like this

Probability of Getting a Job = min((awesomeness of github) * (social skills) * (visibility at local tech events) * (salary expecting to pay / salary asked for),(1))

Where all variables range from 0.25 to 1.25.

Asking for a low salary doesn't really your chances, if you are obviously worth more. People will smell something fishy, justified or not.

Participating in established open source projects (regardless of whether they are on github) is a bit higher visibility than just publishing hobby projects.

There is no doubt that this a great demonstration, but you could also borrow elements of Andrew Horner's approach. Something about Andrew's approach is fresh, and something about your approach is reliable, practical and clearly demonstrates your abilities.

THE reverse job application is probably a combination of both approaches, your skills and demonstrations presented in a fresh approach or format. Maybe kooky drawings aren't the answer, but something more unique than unformatted content buried in a blog post would grab the attention of recruiters.

I don't put myself out there at all and I've always found it incredibly easy to find jobs in the tech industry. As a matter of fact I get calls from recruiters at least once a week and the most I've got is 5 calls in a week, for jobs that honestly are at least decently paid. It's even worse because I have being stalling a degree in finance (yeah I'm weird like that...) for the last 4 years, while working as a developer. So I don't even have a degree. At this point I'd probably explain this because I have work experience that 'proves' me but I didn't have it at the beginning and I still found it easy anyways.

erm, no that is how you copy an app: http://www.weeplaces.com/ratiofinder/

My friend has made four awesome sites like this, but everywhere he interviews at they disregard those sites and assume he can't program because he kind of stumbles around when answering coding questions. He told me it's a combination of being nervous and using a lot of notes while he works because doesn't have a good memory.

I always wonder who potential employers think made his web applications when they reject him saying he doesn't know enough programming.

Yeah I'm pretty terrible on the phone, and I have over 5 years of professional experience (plus coding since I was about 15). So when I get to the part of the phone call where they ask computer science questions I haven't thought about in a bunch of years, I usually just fumble about, get concepts confused, and generally completely blank out.

The better ones are the companies who ask you to do a coding assignment (and I'm not talking FizzBuzz). Sure I wouldn't want to end up having TOO MANY companies ask me to do it since it would be very time consuming, but certainly if you're taking your time to go through the process you should be able to put some time into writing a small demo app for companies you're passionate about joining.

That's pretty much me. I can't tell you how to do some arcane task in code, but give me a week and I'll get a working website doing pretty much anything you want. Give me a few months and it will be polished and ready for anything.

I know I'm not in the minority, as hackers/entrepreneurs, we know ourselves and have drive. Too many employers disregard true results-focused driven people because of a "lack of skills".

OK, that sounds like a marketplace, honestly.

Like: i'm tired of looking for work, let the work find me.

Create an auction with "hire-me" apps. It may be half-baked/weekend projects/proof of concept things etc. People come over to that kind of a "marketplace", and make an offer, no CV/interview required.

In no time flat it will be filled with apps copied from someone else, and the people hired will be unable to do any useful work at all.

It is trivial that you should show some of your works in your job application/CV/website/reverse-job-application (does not matter for me how you call your pitch).

I think you can further improve this by:

- Providing the source code. You created something technically quite trivial (you have to deal with much more complex beasts even at an entry level job at BigCo), so the fact that you could do this is less interesting than how you solved this. Your coding style speaks a lot about your programming abilities.

- Or creating something technically less trivial (in that case the fact that you could do it is very interesting alone, so the source code is not that important). This may require more effort though.

Hmm, when I complete my MSc in a few months I'll have a GAE web app to show for it. However I never expected that to get me a job, I figured I'd need to create about 5 webapps, and maybe a complex desktop app before I'd have a portfolio that screamed 'HIRE ME' (considering my lack of industry experience). I agree with the general premise but a borderline useless FOursquare app surely isn't going to impress much? (unless most graduates are a lot less able than I'm assuming)

I expected that when I see a Google Map on a website that I am able to then click on it and drag it around. That is not the case here, I feel that it takes away from the website in general.

There is of course always the option that instead of you going to _look_ for a job you _create_ a job.

I agree, but creating a job is much much harder than successfully applying for a(n average) job.

A lot of people aren't cut out for that.

Do both! Each process informs the other.

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