Hacker News Reader

Comment by hliyan | Hacker News Reader

This may vary from region to region, but my biggest issue with the present Agile trend is the cargo-culting of SCRUM. Sprints, standups, reviews and retros, planning poker, all followed blindly, but to no effect. Worse yet, the dreaded term "anti-agile" is used to shut down any other way of operating.

It has almost become a religion and any attempts at advocating planning discipline or detailed designs (even in domains where it's called for) are quickly labeled and rejected as "waterfall". Some project managers trained in agile methodologies have trouble grasping some basic common sense project management practices such as dependency tracking and capacity planning.

I recently gave up on all buzzwords and boiled the whole thing down to 3 things:

1. Deliver things in small, testable chunks

2. Start with a best-effort plan, but refine weekly based on how things went

3. If you're blocked or your work is at risk, let others know ASAP

View on HN

The irony being that agile was meant to be a rejection of blindly following a ONE TRUE WAY. A major point was to periodically review your processes and adapt them to better suit your situation. The idea being you don't get locked in to a process that's no longer working and even have some freedom to experiment.

But I'm telling you people!, the earth revolves around the sun. ---Burn him!!!!

We're currently swallowing the Scaled Agile Framework pill and I honestly think that it's cause maybe 3 serious episode of depression and burnout in 7 person team.

We failed a sprint a while back. No one knew you could do that until we did.

So at least we're learning.

SAFe is actually fine if you choose an appropriate level and follow the practices. It's ridiculous how people read that SAFe is "tailorable" and then promptly do something that is in no way Safe.

Every single day i tell my coworkers to RTFM

SAFe is probably the worst offender of what the article is focused on.

I can’t think of a more anti-agile statement than ‘RTFM’. A more productive statement might be ‘Update The Fucking Manual’.

Yeah but management consultants can't sell that as easily as they can sell a pre packaged "agile" solution like they do with SCRUM. Fundamentally, agile requires processes that are at odds with traditional management, so companies that sell buzzwords to traditional management aren't going to push anything that requires real behavioral change from the senior team.

Agile is the ONE TRUE WAY to not follow a ONE TRUE WAY.

Only the Messiah would say he's not the Messiah!

> The irony being that agile was meant to be a rejection of blindly following a ONE TRUE WAY.

The same holds true for all religions. However many believers nowadays defend it as there was only one true way.

That's not quite true, the 3 major monotheist religions of the world insist that they are the only true one, and if you don't believe that very bad things will happen to you.

Exactly. Depending on the team, I usually try to start off using something mostly by the book and we adjust from there. Some teams need more structure and some suffocate under it.

A business has to understand that the processes that are best for software delivery are orthogonal to the ones that are best for business.

Namely, (good/agile) software development demands fluctuation and iteration where business plans seem to thrive on long-term forecasts and projections. Waterfall would absolutely be the best things for businesses... if it worked.

I've seen it go wrong in both ways.

One project did BDUF and then planned it out as a 2 year series of sprints, delivering increments. The scrum master's job was to keep an eye on this macro-schedule and make small course corrections along the way to keep things on track. There were weekly demo's, but since there was no slack in the schedule there was no way to act on the feedback unless the next sprint involved building out the same set of screens. That project went ridiculously over budget, and ended up so unsuitable for the customer's needs that they didn't adopt it.

Another project avoided doing any design up front, because "that's not agile". In the course of the project it became apparent that several key architectural decisions were wrong due to requirements which were known at the start and which would have been apparent had an up-front design been made. These proved very costly to rework.

My conclusion is: (1) if there are requirements set in stone up front, do the design work necessary to fit those requirements at the start, and (2) don't translate that design to a schedule, but instead to a prioritized backlog, then go one sprint at a time without planning too far ahead. Management tends to get really jumpy at the last bit. They want to know the whole scope for the whole cost, up front, and that doesn't fit into an agile way of working. (It doesn't fit into any way of working, which is why so many projects go over budget, but that's a whole different can of worms.)

> (1) if there are requirements set in stone up front, do the design work necessary to fit those requirements at the start

This is quite true. I often frame this as "design detail is inversely proportional to requirements volatility"

>Management tends to get really jumpy at the last bit. They want to know the whole scope for the whole cost, up front, and that doesn't fit into an agile way of working.

This is the delicious irony... management loves the idea of agile because finally those pesky developers will stop pushing back on the schedule with all their requirement demands and lengthy estimates! Go fast, weekly sprints! Daily updates! What do you mean you can't tell me the cost without gathering requirements? I saw so many organizations use Agile as a way to beat developers over the head, then be surprised at the anarchy that resulted.

This is exactly why agile failed, it became a religion and stopped being a tool you could modify as needed.

Like SCRUM, we use kanban boards to handle projects, but a lot of our projects are so small that one guy can build the project in a week or two. Like a registration form for scheduling phone calls, you need a front end form, a backend api and integration to outlook. The first time we build one it took longer, but now we can have one up and running in a week or two.

We place that on our kanban board and we talk about it SCRUM style, but it’s not it’s own project and it’s not broken in to every step of the SCRUM methodology either, because if we did that it would probably add a week of agile project management.

But since we’re not doing that it means that we’re not agile or using SCRUM, because we’ve bent it to our needs and broken it’s golsen dogmas.

Now I give quite a few management talks on this, and as soon as you admit that you’ve broken agile to make it fit, a line of others forms to confess. Because I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone outside of academia or extremely large tech projects that actually followed any of the agile methodologies to the letter.

So agile is just as silly as waterfall, maybe even more so because it turned out that the analysis part of waterfall is often still extremely useful if you’re mixing your tech with HR stuff like benefit realisation, and let’s face it, who in digitisation isn’t? I mean, we’re digitizing to increase efficiency after all, and nothing screams benefit realisation more than that.

Jeff Bezos once warned to "avoid proxies" and using fake scrum is a prime example. Scrum on its own is just a proxy for agility. Scrum done correctly can give you great agility. If you're running stand-ups and using a backlog but are unable to iterate quickly and deliver incremental value then you're failing at your actual goal.

Of course, agile itself can be considered a proxy because the ultimate goal is always customer value.

I used to work at a place where we had to do retros at the end of every sprint. But people would try to theme them?

e.g. World Cup themed retro, describe how the sprint went for you as one of the World Cup teams.

Christ, really? What nonsense.

It just ended up with cringey comments as people try to shoehorn something into being world cup related (or whatever the theme was). Just silly.

"describe how the sprint went for you as one of the World Cup teams."

I'd be tempted to say "I was Scotland - we didn't qualify" ;-)

I'd be tempted to say "I'm long since out of junior high, so I'm going to skip the silly games and just tell you what happened."

The original manifesto still stands up today. As the article says, the problem is fake "agile" that's actively against genuine agile.

Some argue No True Scotsman. That is, any agile process can be faulted so we keep searching for a pure agile somewhere (that actually works). If true the lesson is, agile doesn't work anywhere (or nearly nowhere)

But there is a clear definition: the manifesto. Following the manifesto works. Not following the manifesto doesn't work, even if you call it "agile".

Agile has to work with actual human beings. Holding up the dogma and saying 'well perfect people would succeed' is more One True Scotsman. If nobody is a True Scotsman, what is the point of Agile?

I've seen it succeed, in a lot of places, and the difference between places where "Agile works" and places where "Agile doesn't work" seems to be that the places where "Agile works" are the places that actually put even a token amount of effort into actually doing it. Like, in one of these threads I saw someone saying that standups were a bad idea because in their standup the manager sat down and the meeting took for 30 minutes. That isn't a problem with doing a standups, that's a problem with not standups.

I mean there is clearly some kind of genuine problem here, agreed, but the problem I see is "why do these people think they're doing Agile when they're doing literally the opposite of everything in the definition". I'm genuinely baffled. Is it a cynical lie from managers, or the consultants they hired? Do they genuinely believe they're doing it, and if so, how did they come to think that? Did this happen with other methodologies - did you get companies that claimed to do e.g. RUP or Six Sigma but were actually doing the opposite of everything those methodologies prescribed?

What about online standups? Nobody is standing up and not likely to. What about managers that fall into injecting themselves into every standup? Hard to fix that, hard to eject your manager from a meeting, and its a likely state that becomes the inevitable end point (see Markov Chain).

There's no mystery here. Lots of stories the illustrate how they went wrong. People being people.

Maybe they need more work on the front end, to condition participants to not bring their conditioned responses into it because it requires a new attitude or something.

> What about online standups? Nobody is standing up and not likely to.

Then it's not a standup. Maybe you can find another way to achieve the same aim, or maybe Scrum isn't suited to remote workplaces (I don't have enough experience either way) - if someone had tried to follow agile practice in a remote environment and found it doesn't work there, that could be criticism I'd be interested in hearing. But I just never get the sense that someone has actually engaged with Agile and found it wanting[1]; it always seems to come down to something like them: "Agile sucks" me: "What's wrong with it?" them: "We have this mandatory Agile meeting that everyone involved in agrees is pointless", just some criticism of something that has nothing in common with Agile except for both being a process.

> What about managers that fall into injecting themselves into every standup? Hard to fix that, hard to eject your manager from a meeting, and its a likely state that becomes the inevitable end point (see Markov Chain).

I haven't experienced managers in standups being a problem, but taking it as given that it is for you: if you're saying that you can't fix that then aren't you essentially saying that any process that your organization adopts will inevitably fail (unless you adopt a process with no meetings at all, which has other problems)? Agile gives you every possible explicit opportunity to fix the broken things in your process, including a regular dedicated meeting that's devoted solely to doing that; if your organization is incapable of doing that then I'm not sure what could ever work.

[1] Not actually true; there is a group of people who prefer more up-front planning and tend to give a quite different genre of critique. But they also tend to be more measured and don't frame it as a problem with agile as such.

Here's a process that works: leave me alone to get the job done, and I'll report progress to you regularly. Leave the manager out of my day to day activities. In fact keep everybody out of my way.

Agile explicitly puts people in my way, regularly, and with demands that I report progress with imaginary metrics.

That's how I'd fix it. In fact I became a contractor so I didn't have to do agile any more. Now I get tremendous amounts of work done, using my experience and talent to attack root causes and write the critical code to get the job done.

I see its a whole different attitude from Agile, I get that. But I'm adamant that I don't want what Agile does.

> Here's a process that works: leave me alone to get the job done, and I'll report progress to you regularly. Leave the manager out of my day to day activities. In fact keep everybody out of my way.

Hah, I almost said that that's where this genre of agile criticism seems to come from: the coder who believes they can produce a good product by writing good code without interacting with a customer and so regards any process as an impediment, and isn't actually attacking agile so much as attacking the very concept of process. What you propose is a good way to produce elegant code that doesn't actually do what the customer wanted at all; even if you personally can magically understand the requirements every time, a customer (or a manager) is right to be skeptical, because most programmers can't.

Most of the friction in agile is not about the customer. Where did that come from? Not fair to switch the subject for a pretended win!

Customer collaboration is right there in the manifesto.

Consistent with the comment lmm made, your comment is almost the reason Agile exists. Your approach doesn't work well for most employees. It may for you, but an expectation that all software developers be as reliable as you is poor.

Now getting to specifics:

>Here's a process that works: leave me alone to get the job done, and I'll report progress to you regularly. Leave the manager out of my day to day activities.

I do not think agile requires the manager be involved in day to day activities. If he's insisting on it, he's the problem - not agile.

Reporting progress daily is reporting progress "regularly". Having said that, I do not think agile requires daily progress reports.

As for leaving you alone - that's great if your work doesn't depend on anyone and no one depends on your work. It works if your work is small enough that it can be done by one person. Rarely is that true. But if it is for your work, by all means it's a fine approach.

>That's how I'd fix it. In fact I became a contractor so I didn't have to do agile any more. Now I get tremendous amounts of work done, using my experience and talent to attack root causes and write the critical code to get the job done.

There's plenty of work that can be done that way. I think you'll find plenty that cannot. I don't think you can build a standards observing web browser as a contractor.

Yeah its always somebody's fault, never agile. That's what makes this classic No True Scotsman.

And as for 'small units', that's an agile myth. Many important tasks take concentrated effort over many days or weeks. 'Small enough for one person' doesn't quite cover it. It about how many folks can understand the topic without being there with you in the trenches. Its pointless to go to standup and say "I've a problem with logging in the presence of disk errors, where the driver interacts with the log buffering by generating more log messages". Nobody going to offer useful help without actually recapitulating the work you've already done. So what's the point?

I admit there are many generate-the-web-page-of-the-day tasks that can be turned into assembly-line work. Sadly there are too many jobs like that. I'm not working at any of them.

>Yeah its always somebody's fault, never agile.

I think you're confusing me with someone who is a big fan of agile.

>And as for 'small units', that's an agile myth. Many important tasks take concentrated effort over many days or weeks.

Nothing in my comment suggested small work means it can't take days or weeks.

Note the following phrases in my comment:

>It may for you,

>But if it is for your work, by all means it's a fine approach.

>There's plenty of work that can be done that way.

I've repeatedly given hints that I don't think agile is a universally valid approach. I have my own criticisms of it. I left my last team due to some of the problems that agile presented. At the same time, I've been in teams where agile definitely would be an improvement and I would recommend it to them.

You are coming across as someone who is not OK unless everyone agrees with you that agile sucks and is always a poor idea. Sorry - I don't agree. Just please don't characterize those who disagree with you as agile fans.

Finally, let me address this (said by others in this thread):

>Yeah its always somebody's fault, never agile. That's what makes this classic No True Scotsman.

No True Scotsman applies only when there is not a clear definition or source. It arises from vague notions, which results in everyone having their own definition of what a Scotsman is to the benefit of their own argument. This is not what is going on here. In fact, the argument applies more to those who are criticizing agile as they are the ones who are creating different definitions of agile.

What is agile is not ambiguous. This document is what agile is:

http://agilemanifesto.org/principles.html

Criticizing what is not in there is like me criticizing the US Constitution because there exist some silly laws in my state. And then when people point out the constitution doesn't mandate those laws, responding with "That's just a No True Scotsman!"

I was responding to the fault-deflection in the previous comment. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

If its not exactly what NTS is then lets use some other phrase that better captures "Lets continue to apologize for the failure to implement the agile manifesto effectively in many situations". An effective business practice has to be able to be put into practice. Without a large potential-energy-hill of retraining and right-think and group buyin. I don't think agile is that thing. I'm sure some small groups have successfully done something they call agile (not yet convinced its by simply adhering to the manifesto), that's great for all who succeeded.

But the war stories of failure are pervasive.

>But the war stories of failure are pervasive.

I do not find them to be any more pervasive than non-agile methodologies. And success stories do exist, so it clearly is not an unqualified failure. This looks like a case of "We can hate it because someone gave a name to it".

> Many important tasks take concentrated effort over many days or weeks.

This is commonly claimed, but I've never seen an example (in software) that stood up to scrutiny. People can always find a way to deliver some useful, visible value within two weeks of one person's work if they spend 5 minutes actually trying to think of a way to do it.

> Its pointless to go to standup and say "I've a problem with logging in the presence of disk errors, where the driver interacts with the log buffering by generating more log messages". Nobody going to offer useful help without actually recapitulating the work you've already done. So what's the point?

If you're making progress on your task and just need to spend some more time, it's fine to just say as much. If you've been stuck for a while, maybe it is time to ask someone else to come work on the problem with you - or at least time to warn the end client that what you're doing is going to be late. Taking a few minutes once a day to look back and decide whether you're actually making any progress or need to stop and reassess is about the right cadence, rather than blindly bashing your head against the problem for weeks or months.

(Sometimes bashing your head against the problem for weeks or months is the right thing, but it should be an explicit, conscious decision to do that)

And the flipside is that it gives people who need input from you a scheduled point to ask for it, rather than interrupting your work. Presumably you're working on the same product with these people and so what you do affects each other - otherwise why are you in the same standup or even the same team?

Then it's not a standup. Maybe you can find another way to achieve the same aim, or maybe Scrum isn't suited to remote workplaces (I don't have enough experience either way)

I haven't had too many problems with online scrums/standups. The basic rules are the same, every gives a quick breakdown on what they did, what they are doing and any issues they have. You just don't have people physically in the same location.

I will say the biggest help when dealing with the remote situation is having someone willing to take decent notes and send a quick email with a summary, which helps compensate for the lack of face-to-face.

> Then it's not a standup

Why not? Who cares if they're actually standing? They can lay on the floor if you ask me, as long as they can share the status with team members.

I see a different problem with standup. Plenty of people applying the same rule over and over without understanding what's the real goal of standup. Plenty of people just take the virtual stick of the speaker (or sometimes not virtual) and say the same mantra every morning "I've done this, I'm doing that, no problems," and pass the stick to another.

But the real goal is not to check up on people to make sure they are doing something. In fact I couldn't care less if you are doing something or not. You could sit there watching cats videos all day as long as, in the end, all TASKS are completed. If you can sit doing nothing your team have a different problem, obviously, but that's another story.

The team have made a commitment on Monday that they deliver some features till Friday (assuming weekly iteration.) So what they do? They create tasks. The team is tracking the tasks on the board and the team should check all tasks every morning. Start with task #123. Who's doing it? John. So, John tell us about it - what's status, when can you complete, is everything smooth? Then you take next task - #124. Who is doing it? No one. But then John says he can complete current task today, so he's going to take it. And another task... Your standup should be about tasks, not about people. The difference is subtle, because it the end everyone should share the same info - progress, blockers, etc. But by checking on tasks the team members automatically build mental model of current iteration. How far are they? Is the tempo OK? Or maybe there's some delay and, finally, can they deliver on time? People will understand better where they are somewhere in the middle of the week and this is the key point. To share and understand. Not to report, forget and just go doing your job.

The output of the iteration is the work done. Check the work, not the people.

> Who cares if they're actually standing? They can lay on the floor if you ask me, as long as they can share the status with team members.

Standing up was a specific solution to a specific problem. There may be other ways to achieve the same thing, but you should be aware of what you're doing.

> Your standup should be about tasks, not about people. The difference is subtle, because it the end everyone should share the same info - progress, blockers, etc. But by checking on tasks the team members automatically build mental model of current iteration. How far are they? Is the tempo OK? Or maybe there's some delay and, finally, can they deliver on time?

This really doesn't seem such an important distinction. You assign tasks to people in your iteration planning; if a task is stuck it will be because a person is stuck on it and vice versa.

Difference is subtle but outcome significant. When iterating over people - everyone will often think about themselves and what they have to do today. When iterating over tasks - everyone is involved in common goal. You are focusing on tasks needed to be done to complete the sprint. Few times already, during former type of standup, I've experienced repetitive answering the same questions everyday. People stopped caring about them at all.

I think the argument is that if it's so hard for most people to see the difference between "Agile" and "not Agile", maybe Agile is unsuitable for most.

In my experience barely anyone who claims to work Agile ever looks at the values or principles, or reflects about their own work in a systematic way. Scheduling Scrum meetings is easy. Applying Agile principles to your actual work is difficult, especially if you are already overwhelmed by Scrum.

People like Scrum because it distracts from Agile and doesn't interfere with your work much. You can serve time in Scrum meetings, then return to your actual work. Scrum fills a void, but doesn't ask any hard questions. Don't think about what you are doing, just show up to the meeting and go through the motions.

People like to follow pre-made structures like Scrum. They don't like to define or change them. You could potentially insult someone. "The Scrum Guide says so" is less personal than "it makes more sense to do X". Clinging to a fixed process like Scrum inhibits being actually Agile because Agile is all about changes. Change requires courage. Most employees don't feel like courage will be rewarded. In our culture, courage is reserved for big companies or top-level management.

In short, that's why "Agile doesn't work".

Labels don't control reality. If I say to you, "If you remove your engine, open it up and clean it out, and put it back in, it'll fix your problem. I call this Cleaning the Engine." And then you come back and tell me that didn't fix your problem, and I ask, "Well, what did you do?" and you say "I Cleaned the Engine, just like you asked. First, I smashed the ignition. Then I rolled the windows up and down. Then I filled the gas tank with water. Now nothing works. Your Cleaning the Engine plan completely broke my car and it sucks!", I'm not going to be terribly impressed when I tell you that's not what I said to do, and you come back and argue "But I Cleaned the Engine just like you said! Oh, let's not get tied up in semantics and definitions, look, I Cleaned the Engine! I have a Cleaning the Engine consultant that says so."

If Agile is to be damned, let it be damned for what it is. But complaining that "Agile" doesn't work when you take it, do everything pretty much the opposite of what it says, but insist on slapping the label "Agile" on it anyhow, isn't a very compelling argument. Before you have a problem with methodology, you have a problem with terminology.

There is a sense in which Agile can't help but succeed, since it boils down to "Do the things that work, and keep checking that they work and check whether new things would work". The problem is, people don't want to do that. They don't want to have to do the checking work, or the thinking work, for any number of reasons (a few good, mostly bad). If you won't do things that work, check that they work, or sometimes try new things to see if they work, you can't expect the benefits of doing thing that work, checking to see if they work, and trying new things to see if they work, no matter whether you call it Agile or Scrum or Bumblekitty.

This is why Lean and Agile are both failing in my place of employment.

Lean (on the production side) because they failed to take into account one of the most important concepts of lean: employee empowerment. Rather than letting workers improve their own processes (or identify improvements to be approved by engineers if they made sense, some shortcuts don't need to be taken), they had management, engineers (sometimes), and manpower specialists walk through the area and come back to the workers with a statement like: Put X here, and Y there, that'll shave off 200 round trips a day and save you 2 hours for the work. They may not be wrong, but they've intruded on the worker's area without really consulting with them. They also gave the impression that the freed up time would be used to cut staffing (because now they can do more with less), rather than take on more workload. This scared the employees.

Agile (on our software and services side) is failing for the same kind of reasons.

"I heard we should have daily standups, so everyone have a daily standup!" Some teams have used it effectively, others haven't. Their leads don't know what to do with the time.

Then we had people who insisted there's no planning in Agile (which is not true), and thought you could just throw things on the backlog and pull it off the queue and that'll be fine (they never go through the backlog and treat it correctly, prioritizing and grooming it). Which creates a bad result almost every time (surprise!). This leads to a bad impression amongst workers ("Agile doesn't work here.") and management ("Agile never works.") and customers ("We want you to lay out your 5-year detailed schedule because that 2-week at a time thing failed spectacularly.").

The two extremes of Agile Adherents are both present here. Those who mistake Agile for Scrum or SAFe and believe there's a one-true-way with heavyweight (but not Waterfall!) processes. And those who believe it's an anarchic free-for-all with no processes and no plans. Both have missed the point of it, and both have made my job and efforts much harder.

Agile works fine with actual human beings. The problem is getting agile to work with actual managers, especially upper management.

I mean, I've done agile with a team of maybe 30-40 people. It worked great... for a couple of years. When it fell apart, the problem was that upper management didn't know how to manage something that wasn't waterfall-ish.

I'm inclined to agree. If a system repeatedly fails to get implemented properly by a statistical majority of adopters, perhaps the issue lies with the system itself rather than the adopters.

So peace is bad because the world fails to implement that?

It's not black and white. Organizations can still benefit from discussion and reflection even if they can't fully be Agile.

> So peace is bad because the world fails to implement that?

This is called a strawman argument. Peace is a moral imperative. It's software equivalent would be "delivering high quality software on schedule". Agile (or what people believe agile to be) is a system of achieving that goal.

Peace is a goal, and not a system. If your system for achieving "peace" is a police state, and you find that your "adversaries" are always able to overcome or work around them, eventually you may realize that the police state (tyranny, authoritarianism, etc.) is ineffective in creating a stable peaceful state.

That doesn't mean that achieving a peaceful state as a goal is bad, or necessarily impossible, but that the method/system applied to achieve it was not effective.

But that's the problem - Agile is a list of suggestions, not a recipe or a system. So there isn't a fake or true Scotsman, there are only an outline of behaviors, which each adopting team should use as the beginning of the conversation about what to do for themselves. Think about it perhaps like - you have the Magna Carta, the Constitution, and the Grundgesetz in front of you and get to make your own country, but there's nothing that says you must adopt all or even any of the provisions of those charters if they don't fit your needs.

To the degree it has no good definition, then its even easier to apologize when it fails, right? That's exactly when No True Scotsman seems to rear its head.

You can also argue that the original Communist Manifesto still stands up today, and that the problem is that genuine communism has never been put in place.

I’ve noticed, still after a decade, people who know what they’re doing will self organise into an “agile ish” way of working similar to the points you make.

If you prescribe it you end up with a mess every time.

Agile occurs naturally if you’re team isn’t dysfunctional. If you have to force it in, its dysfunctional.

I disagree there. Chaos occurs naturally. Agile takes real work and discipline.

Cowboy coding isn't agile.

No. An organisation buys in “agile” as an ideological solution to a lack of disciplined professionals.

Disciplined professionals self organise. No ideology is ever discussed even if they use it.

The difference is focus. And that’s crazy important.

I’ve been at this for 20 years and watched both successful and unsuccessful teams. The most successful team are not ideologically or process driven. And quality, time to market and technical debt is orders of magnitude lower than any externally applied agile class process which is purely focused on delivery and compartmentalisation.

I've been working on and off with formal agile since 2002, and worked on "disciplined professionals" teams.

You know what is disciplined? Formalizing a process and following it, even when it's inconvenient or annoying. Getting by on talent, high bandwidth communication, and sufficiently small scope might work, but don't call it "discipline". It's luck and narrowly defined circumstance.

Try using that method on a $50M enterprise project with 100+ developers and see how far you get before you choke to death.

I wonder how humans even got to the Moon without Scrum.

I wonder what percentage of rockets blew up on the launchpad?

What percentage of agile managed enterprise software platforms blow up before they even get to the launch?

Been there. Done that. Before any agile methodologies were popularlised.

Scrum isn't meant to solve problems, it's meant to reveal them so you and your team can solve them yourselves. Scrum is a framework and doesn't prescribe any development practices. Rather you use the framework and iteratively insert your own practices and processes, regularly inspecting and adapting those practices and processes over time to fit your goals.

Stop blaming the framework for a lack of discipline.

I’m certainly not blaming a framework for lack of discipline. I’m saying that lack of discipline breeds a framework to try and control the lack of discipline whereas the problem of discipline should be resolved first.

When you retrofit a process over an undisciplined team you end up with organised chaos which people think is the status quo.

At the same time your product burns but the paperwork says otherwise.

If you have a disciplined team they tend to self organise a process that works within the constraints of the business rather than a specific approach.

Very few disciplined professionals out there which is why the software industry is a mess.

> Agile trend is the cargo-culting of SCRUM

After my last gig I firmly believe that agile is a cargo cult: every morning sales and marketing did a standup. In a circle. At the peak about 50 of the org members.

Actually, the original principles of the manifesto are all solid: http://agilemanifesto.org/principles.html

It's "scrum" that appears to be the problem...

Yup.

I've come to realize a few key things:

1) Humans have an extremely limited capacity to determine what's true. 2) Our modus operandi is not to determine what is true but with which side are we politically affiliated 3) The truth is of little importance

This plays out exactly like you describe. A cargo-cult. You're either for or against it. You are either on the political side of the divide that believes being in the cult is better for ones survival or you are on the side that believes deep introspection about what is better for the situation at hand is best for survival. Close to nobody has the resources or capacity to evaluate if it's actually a good idea or not and even less so the political clout to sway the group for or against. So cargo-cult it is, for better or for worse.

TL;DR The state of any development methodology you can give a name to and dogmatically adhere to: a shambles.

This has been my experience exactly.

It's a little shocking how common the groupthink was, and no one dared speak against it, so it's nice to see people speaking freely here.

Agile makes me want to leave software entirely.

I would argue Agile is a Philosophy and Waterfall would be more of a Methodology. My biggest concern with Agile is that it's lacking integration with a methodology (ie: best practices of waterfall could be in an agile way). Companies and teams tend to just say lets do Agile/Scrum/Kanban and leave out the requirements definition, documentation, etc and replace it with "As a user create shiny button". Which, might be fine in some cases but as a new-start it lacks direction IMO.

All you need is a proper retrospective. And that's basically it.

In a proper retrospective, you can change anything you want, improve every step.

So all the problems that you mention, can all be addressed and improved, just as long as you have a good retrospective. Don't like planning poker? Do something else. Don't like standups? Change it.

I really wanted to agree with you, but your comment is mostly criticizing people doing agile without understanding it.

And yet, you 3 points prove that you don't understand agile either.

If feels like a bad driver honking at other cars.

All the points you cite are useful, but they are nowhere what agile is.

The most important thing about agile is __the emphasis on communication and a short feedback loop__.

You deliver things in small testable chunks because it's easier to ochestrate a team around that, and you get feedback sooner.

You refine weekly based on how things went because you can thanks to the regular feedback you get.

You let others know ASAP because you have regular communication.

You are making the same mistake as everybody: thinking agile is about a process, and hence, rules.

It's not.

Agile is a set of principles, which then you use to implement whatever rules and so, process, you need for your current situation. SCRUM is one way, XP is another.

Your agile and mine won't be the same. Mine today won't be the same as the one tomorrow.

Because what matters is communication and short feedback loops, and there are many ways to get that.

Sure, you can use proven tools and receipes. It's good. We all do it.

But it's no more agile that using a good knife is cuisine.

That's why there was a post-agile movement already like 5 years ago, but due to overwhelming bandwagoning of clueless PMs trained in "Agile" by big-bank "consultants" that stream seems to have died out.

Amen

I guess that SCRUM should have not been adopted as a mainstream/default agile process. I think that SCRUM can work for some teams, but it should be a niche in the world of agile development.

The problem is that people take it as a "best agile practice/process for every team". That is IMHO the biggest issue here.

I wrote an article about my experiences with SCRUM which I named "Why SCRUM doesn't work" :-) You can read it here: https://stribny.name/blog/2018/05/why-scrum-doesnt-work

I'd be interested in any opinions about this.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com