GM’s data mining is just the beginning of the in-car advertising blitz
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> Leela: Didn't you have ads in the 21st century?"
> Fry: Well sure, but not in our dreams. Only on TV and radio, and in magazines, and movies, and at ball games... and on buses and milk cartons and t-shirts, and bananas and written on the sky. But not in dreams, no siree.
One day we'll engineer a way for humans to survive without sleep in order to boost productivity, unless the dream ad lobby is strong enough to kill the anti-sleeper bills and R&D
Where the individual can go into their own world. With time dilation to engage in whatever they wanted.
Imagine spending 5 years working on a startup, where in reality 8 hours passed by.
Even better, if you had something like neural lace, where you could have a simulated reality and interact with other dreamers and even save your progress to the real world.
This would change everything.
(BRB, calling my patent lawyer...)
Can HN comments be used as valid prior art to shoot down patents? I really wish they could be.
That would require you to be able to process information dramatically faster, by at least a thousand or more times (even cutting out non-work time).
most parts search systems and recall bulletin systems do backflips to get you to report your customers. Popups requesting the make/model of the vehicle eventually expanded to just asking for a partial vin, then full vin. Now its not uncommon for Ford/GM parts search systems or recall databases to ask for the subscriber code for the vehicles OnStar system. Enter that code and it triggers a server somewhere at GM to pull vehicle data for the car. Ive called up a warranty claim or parts hotline to find the person on the other end asked for my customer by name. Pretty invasive for a wheel bearing.
The good news is, you can permanently disable OnStar and remote data collection fairly simply:
1. Theres usually an onstar control box near the radio inside the dash (not hard to get to.) this is NOT your ECM...look for a box with MAC address data on it.
2. Disconnect the box and open it. triple check to make sure its NOT the ECM. youll find a daughter board with a GPS antenna, and a cellular antenna.
3. Theres a male/male header bridge between the master board and that daughter board. pull that bridge, or remove the daughter board, and youve disabled onstar.
Caveats:
-Most vehicles dont check for the modem. youll not get a service code on the dash.
-This should not affect bluetooth pairing.
- Onstar calls, both automated and regular, will fail with "call completed."
-Be perfectly certain you want to disable onstar because the box comes with crash detection software that tries to dial onstar and report your crash.
Just look at their plans, https://www.onstar.com/us/en/plans-pricing/compare-plans/
Starting at $25 a month just for crash reporting and stolen vehicle assistance. I am of the opinion that if ANY manufacturer can detect a crash that they legally be required to render assistance. This assistance can simply be calling local authorities and up to informing the occupants through the in car system that that has occurred. Even if you don't pay they know it happened.
Onstar isn't the only plan but it certainly is the most expensive I have encountered. Then again BMW will charge you not only for map updates but to use Apple's Carplay.
Manufacturers have realized that if people buy cars and keep them longer then they need to find means to turn that into a continuous stream of income and too many are willing to exploit the safety side to do it.
Coincidentally this is also the perfect way to cut out any other advertising channels and have complete control of the users attention.
I don't know if this will happen, but I'd bet that there are people in any major car company and beyond who are thinking how they can bring this scenario into reality.
[TV shuts off, surprising everyone]
Janie Crane: "An off switch!"
Metrocop: "She'll get years for that.
Off switches are illegal!"
It's disturbing how many Max Headroom episodes are now literally true.
"Blank is beautiful!"
As O'Brien passed the telescreen a thought seemed to strike him. He stopped, turned aside and pressed a switch on the wall. There was a sharp snap. The voice had stopped.
Julia uttered a tiny sound, a sort of squeak of surprise. Even in the midst of his panic, Winston was too much taken aback to be able to hold his tongue.
'You can turn it off!' he said.
'Yes,' said O'Brien, 'we can turn it off. We have that privilege.'
I don't want any part in this. I couldn't give a rat's ass what happens to the terrestrial radio industry or its advertisers.
That is, until they make it my problem by surveilling me for their sole benefit.
And your cable provider has likely pulled your credit report as part of signing up (to avoid requiring a deposit), as well as confirmed your identity, physical address, and phone ynumber. All very valuable information and making it much easier to stitch your data into third party data sources if they want. And if they're also your internet provider, theoretically have some potentially lucrative access to your overall interests, usage patterns, devices in your household, etc. All of which could be leveraged at just the metadata level to derive secondary information such as your daily routines, household size, major life events, whether you have an affinity for Apple vs Android, whether you're an "early adopter" of tech, etc.
Cable providers can be just as if not more capable of creating and monetizing incredibly rich data about viewers as their non-cable counterparts. If they're in the mood to risk any PR fallout from it.
Do people actually listen to the Scooter crew morning zoo or w/e the local station's morning show is on their app?
The radio is impossible to listen to now unless it's a specific live talk show I'm interested in. Otherwise there are better radio stations online to listen to better playlists of music than Top 40 on repeat.
There is literally nothing you have that I am interested in - select podcasts and audible is strictly superior.
There'll come a day when we have to replace it, and I'm dreading having to pay more for something that most likely won't be as reliable, but will attempt to squeeze yet more "value" out of me. The corporatization of everyday goods and services at the expense of consumers absolutely sickens me. I can't go to the movies without having to watch 15 minutes of ads, even though I already paid for my seat (and tickets are more expensive than ever). I fear giving my email/phone number/etc. to anybody because I have no idea how they'll be used. I have to regularly remind my ISP/phone provider to stop trying to push more crap and use me as some sort of advertizing platform for my friends. And so on.
People complain about Facebook, Google, etc. all the time for their underhanded tactics, but at the very least I haven't already paid for the product before being amalgamated into it... For all the people on HN who work for these companies and help them implement these things, I do have to ask, how do you sleep at night?
The only modification it has is a bluetooth receiver instead of the CD part of the radio. It's so wonderfully low-tech that the key fob doesn't even work anymore, only manual keys for me.
I bought it when I could have purchased a new vehicle for a similar price using a GM employee discount. Never regretted the decision, and now seeing all this coming out, I feel even better about my camry. I'll drive it until it dies and then hopefully never own another vehicle.
This is probably going to demand a new type of GMO human, one that can concentrate on main content while at the same time processing ad content.
Or, we can stand up as the humans we are and demand that ads be banned from being shoved down our throats at every juncture. In lieu of legislation (don't have much hope there): some sort of manifesto that specifies how ads be displayed (i.e. exclusively behind a 'show ads'-button), coupled with shaming of the corporations that violate such an advertising 'code of conduct'.
It should really be tried.
In other words, the ads were easy to ignore if you weren't interested, everyone understood that, and they were priced accordingly. There was money in advertising, but not enough that the CEOs of ad companies were competing to see who could be the first to shoot some poor human sucker at Mars on a branded rocket. Then advertising turned toward all-out war, first with annoyances like animated GIFs and pop-ups, then with surveillance-based ads that started with DoubleClick (a.k.a. Google, a.k.a. Alphabet). Advertisers became some of the richest men on the planet, somehow convincing people that tracking every single mouse movement on every webpage made advertising unimaginably valuable.
What really scares me is what the surveillance companies turn to when slinging micro-targeted ads doesn't make enough money. Google+23andme health insurance, anyone?
Ad-men have been some of the richest men on the planet long before the word 'mouse' referred to something other than a small furry critter.
EDIT: I see where you may be coming from. Newspaper barons like William Randolph Hearst? Sort of, but his papers offered both "creative" and "editorial."
Ad agency pay sucks in general.
Sorry, I thought "ad-man" was a pretty unambiguous statement that referred directly to the executives of ad agencies?
And they weren't even topical commercials. Just...commercials. I'm a cord-cutter so I've been fairly isolated and I found the whole thing jarring. It did not encourage me to spend more time or money to give people more chances to advertise to me. (Though the event itself was otherwise great)
... She also started pestering me for about a dozen different, explicitly named toys. Something she had never done before.
The thing I don't get is, there has to be products out there that are actually useful, but I don't see advertising for those*
*exception: some sleeping headphones I saw in an app on Twitter, but they fail to meet my requirement: I want to put them on, go to sleep, and not hear a noise after that. I will pay 1k+ for this, iff they really work.
My impression is that the most stolen cars usually fit that description, surprisingly enough. Old, reliable, nondescript cars are exactly the ones that have a thriving market for parts and are relatively easy to steal. I remember for instance, late 90s Honda Accords being on the list of top most stolen models at one time.
The other reason I see not to keep an old car forever is that I don't trust old airbags, especially since the Takata fiasco. Nothing lasts forever, and originally I read that airbags were supposed to last 10 years, so how do you trust a 15 year old explosive device aimed at your face?
https://www.nicb.org/news/news-releases/2017-hot-wheels-repo...
It might just be because those models sell the most, so there are more around to be stolen, or maybe there is more demand for stolen parts because they sell more.
Maybe there is a sizable black market of major parts (engines, transmissions, body panels) etc. to unscrupulous repair shops?
I've also used Craigslist because new parts can be 5 times more expensive than used parts. You may buy all your items new, but most of the working class people on my block, who are constantly upgrading their cars, probably can't afford it. So, I have no problem imagining a large black market.
There is a huge market for them. They are laundered through junk yards.
Well, it’s both. They’re two sides of the same coin.
Hard to have a thriving car theft business if there isn’t good enough demand for the parts you need to sell.
Can’t have a high demand for parts unless a large amount of those cars are on the streets (or if the cars are absolute junk and need constant parts repair)
The cars that you see in the junk yard in large quantities are probably the ones that will be stolen from the streets.
Yes, there is demand for those car parts, but most importantly, late-90’s Honda are incredibly easy to steal. They didn’t fix that until the 2000 model.
It’s so well known that you need something like a club to stop those cars from disappearing.
Toyota's are still very reliable, even more efficient and a lot safer... You'll be fine.
It's an incredibly simple point A to B type car, but I love that about it. I can change the oil and filter without even having to jack it up, it's fuel efficient, and no touch screens. It kinda blew my mind when I was perusing new cars and there is nothing even remotely close to the Micra in terms of cost/value.
But then I ride them around with a smartphone in my pocket snitching me out to the cell providers (and any nearby stingrays), slurping up gps signals and wallowing in wifi and bluetooth bands... (And with a license plate being snapped and OCRed probably hundreds of times a week...)
Vehicle hacking is very real.
I'm as concerned about insecure computers in cars as the next tinfoil-wearing conspiracy theorist (that is to say- very, very much), but let's not overstate the actual numbers. A modern car getting hacked is a real risk that needs to be handled, but the actual occurrence of it in the wild is extremely low, and likely to remain that way for at least the next few decades.
So unless you're Snowden and someone is actively trying to kill you, citing the risk of hacking as a rational safety-based reason to drive a 15 year-old car just doesn't hold water.
And if you are Snowden, physically tampering with a car or just forcing you off the road is so easy, hacking probably doesn't increase the risk profile much either. Granted, it's slightly more convenient for your would-be murderers.
A suggestion. When it comes time to replace your Corolla, buy an older used car and use the price differential between your "new" oldie and the newer car you might have bought to return your oldie to zero time. New engine, trannie, new hoses & tubing, wheel bearings, retrofit LED lighting...etc. Or you could do this with the Corolla you have now.
You'll sacrifice newer bells & whistles and some safety features, to be sure. But you won't have to listen to ads unless you voluntarily tune them in on that FM/AM radio.
Edit to add: And your car won't be reporting on you to whoever put up a few pennies for your life data.
I've subscribed to Abine Blur to be able to generate separate masked emails for sites I'm wary of, as well as have a masked phone number.
It was big news when those "car hackers" found a way to control car systems over 3g. They want to increase that surface area?
Their lack of paranoia is insane to me.
Eventually this will become a big enough problem that cars will come with a security rating just like the safety ratings they come with today. Most people will be happy with their 4/5 security stars, but as everyone in the infosec industry knows you can never be truly secure, only secure enough relative to your threat model.
That's GM in a nutshell, in my experience. I've rented 10 or so over the years (because for some reason that's what car rental places I've been to overwhelmingly have) and their cars tick lots of feature boxes but I would probably never buy one.
Why do our cars actually need to be connected to the internet at all? Do our televisions really need cameras? Are we really in that small of a minority that sees harm in these things?
I am entirely dumbfounded and afraid by modern society.
It will come full circle. The possibility is there but widespread abuse hasn't happened yet. When it does, security will be the #1 selling point.
Other than that, I don't see why people are in here bragging about their awesome 15-20 year old cars. My brand new car has a manual transmission, a knob for the volume control, no built-in navigation, etc. The only real difference between this car and the one I owned in 2004 is that this is better in all ways. All.
Presumably because all those things you mentioned are difficult to find in new cars? I don’t think anyone is really of the opinion that newer cars have been degrading in mechanical quality; rather they’ve become much more unpleasant to use and own. Where you could trivially open up the car, theres specialized parts with manufacturer-specific tooling required (Even my car’s tire rim has a fucking key). Where the dashboard was mostly simple and operatable without looking, now you cant use any of it while in motion. And of course it’ll be slow, unreliable and somehow decide you need voice assistance and want to make a call.
And my own pet peeve: the incessant fucking beeping. Everything fucking beeps at you. I drove a prius recently: it beeps if you’re parked near the curb, beeps because you’re in reverse, beeps because of your seatbelt, beeps with the gps; stop by the gas station for a cacaphony: beeping and tvs and music just quiet enough that you can’t really make it out but youre aware its there. Expect the 2020 prius to beep while accelerating
Oh, and of course, now you can enjoy ads too, which’ll probably beep for your attention as well.
Obviously you can rip these things out, and obviously you can find cars without these things (especially if you’re paying the premium to customize), but these UX “improvements” are the norm, and you can reliably run from all of this horrible hell by turning back to 1996.
And if that car runs well, it’s probably much more pleasant to use than the same model in 2018. Mechanically worse, but far fewer “features” that enter the human areas.
That is because some people think it's okay to take the wheels of the car when you park it.
Serious question: Why? I've never found it particularly helpful myself, but what's the big deal about a sound that reminds you to put on a critical safety device that you should already be using anyway? Do you really find yourself hearing those dings for long enough that it becomes a serious annoyance? If so, don't you think the ding isn't the actual problem there?
Because they're having exactly the same driving experience as you while being tens of thousands of dollars better off?
Don't forget about how nice it is to give zero fucks about your car.
"oh, gotta load a dirty lawnmower into the trunk, idgaf"
"oh, the bushes on this dirt road are overgrown and will scratch my paint, idgaf"
"gotta haul trash lumber to the dump, looks like a case of idgaf"
Honestly, I've owned my share of old cars. Everything has a cost, sometimes it's money, sometimes it's hassle, etc. The marginal extra cost of a new vehicle is a rounding error financially at this point, so the biggest value is not having to worry about anything.
I do have the navigation system on, but that's it.
Increasingly, I realize we let companies put things in products that actively hurt us. This is an absurd situation, and yet it persists.
Have you ever wondered why not every possible business goes for the easy, incremental revenue of advertising?
Why doesn't Netflix just show some pre-roll video add? It's easy money.
When you buy expensive shoes, why don't they pitch you also buying an expensive jacket in nearby store and get an ad commission?
The reason is that ad income is extremely low, ads are not exactly welcomed and degrade user experience.
Netflix makes $120/yr from you. They could make maybe $10/yr more if they were aggressive with ads. But if you cancel Netflix because you're sick of ads, then one year of you not paying for Netflix costs them more than 10 years of ad revenue.
That why ads thrive in a very specific environment: the cost of ad impression must be extremely low and there is no better way of getting money from the user.
Robo taxis, the supposed future ad hell, are the opposite. They'll make lots of money per user ($100+/month) and the cost of ad impression is very high.
If any robo taxi provider will be stupid enough to annoy passenger with ads then they'll loose big time to another provider who isn't.
You just described my experience with NY Taxi Cabs vs. Lyft
My normal watch process is to watch the game after the family goes to bed, and fast forward through a good chunk of the filler (commercial breaks, halftime, free throws, etc)
When watching on my computer, they insert un-skippable ad breaks during stoppages, even when watching a replay. That means if I am too slow to skip the timeout break, or happen to slide the slider to a section of the game that is an ad break, I get stuck watching 2 minutes of commercials. Since I am constantly fast forwarding during the game, I end up spending more of my time watching ads than the game.
It is awful. If I can't figure out a workaround, this is probably my last year subscribing. My only current solution is to record the game on my DVR (using the same league pass subscription), because then I can fast forward. However, not all the games on TV are HD.... it is pretty awful overall.
That is completely absurd. They literally broke fast forward. I would definitely not sign up next year. I bet the commercials are louder than the game too.
Their protagonists are always smoking in their originals.
Now you wont be able to unsee.
They will, eventually. Or they'll get replaced by a service that does.
Have you ever been in a cab?
The outside of the cab is a billboard, yeah.
I'm very skeptical of your "$10/year" figure for how much they could make. I can't think of any mixed-model services like Spotify or Hulu that are that low in price delta between ad-supported and ad-free.
Does it lack the hardware for the connection or did Tesla just disable the features that use it in those cars?
A car only lacks remote connectivity if it lacks the required hardware.
Does it lack the hardware for the connection or did Tesla just disable the features that use it in those cars?
A car only lacks remote connectivity if it lacks the required hardware, like a cellular modem.
If you think 4G will be off in 10 years, may I recommend reading about 3G networks and 2G networks...
For reference, the latest 2G shutdown will happen in 2019 starting from 1991.
1G is still existing in Russia currently.
Same with a car: don't let it connect via wifi. If it has a cell modem, cancel the service plan. In the unlikely event that there's no plan to cancel, 'mod' it with wire cutters and/or a dremel. (of course this assumes that you own the vehicle rather than lease it)
$1000 TV, $5 SoC from 3 years ago. The last Android update they did was to add more advertising to it!
blihp, what I would say if you have an Android TV is see if you can install your own SSL certificates before you connect it. Lots of services are using SSL so you may only be able to pull netflow-style data from it. Also worth seeing if adb is listening on the network or on one of the USB ports.
Mine isn't Android TV (though I suppose it's possible it's running some Android variant rather than just a custom Linux build behind the scenes... I'll check that out)... it's a Roku/Netflix TV. So my plan is to put it behind an OpenWRT router and at the very least isolate and monitor the traffic if I'm not easily able to MITM it. If I find anything interesting I'll probably throw up a YouTube video so Google can further build up its profile about me while I attempt to figure out how someone else is attempting to build up a profile about me. The game of cat and mouse continues... (not sure which I am most days)
I sincerely hate everything the "tech" industry has done to society over the past 10 years or so.
If you don't want a smart TV you should by a "professional display" (I don't remember the exact term). They're almost exactly like a normal flat-screen, except their designed for always-on operation an lack all the "smart" crap.
;)
I'm exaggerating of course, but think about how hard it is to get a decent dumb phone nowadays. Yes there are options, but nothing like in the Nokia 3210 days.
Also check out these guys: https://comma.ai/ if you buy the right car the entire thing is drive by wire and entirely computer controllable.
It took talking to a head of development at OnStar over LinkedIn to even get a response explaining how to get an API key so I wouldn't bother there, getting the API key from the app is pretty straight forward (just don't share what you're doing with it I guess)
It's also cool to note you can write apps for your headunit, just HTML+Js+CSS
There are some ISO compliance rules that prevent the remote start function on ICE vehicles (for example: if your car is in an enclosed space, this could be dangerous).
PS: DEF only works on NOx compounds.
I drive a 16yo car w/a 5-speed H-pattern manual which still runs great (100mph is just seconds away anytime, 7500Lb towing capacity), and am considering whether to go forward or retro, or just fully refurbish this SAV. I love driving, have held racing licenses & won races & championships, but also look forward to self-driving cars with the current state of traffic.
In a traffic jam today, I thought it'd be really nice to have Tesla's automatic lane-keeping & follow tech.
Yet this kind of intrusive tracking and trying to force yet more targeted advertising at us is just sickening.
There's nothing new with the kind of specs that I have in my garage right now, and the only downside is requiring 91octane petrol and getting only 21-25mpg.
It is clear that we cannot trust the major manufacturers to not engage in this tracking&targeting nonsense. Tesla does track very extensively, but I don't think they're interested in advertising to us or selling our data -- but how long will that last?
On the one hand, I really want self-driving cars with the current congested traffic that is no fun. But on the other hand, I feel like I might be one of the last holdout curmudgeons with a standard shift and round steering wheel as human driving becomes illegal.
Thoughts?
You know what would be benefical to the radio industry? To stop playing the top 4 songs (of any genre) over and over and use some real music innovation and variety.
If this model could make money, they'd be doing it.
Terrestrial radio economics are such that when you tune-in (which far fewer people do nowadays) you want to hear "that new song you like".
For instance, suppose they know that you like BBQ, and they have a new BBQ restaurant advertising client having a grand opening. They know from the data from the in-car navigation service that you have probably not been to a BBQ restaurant recently so might be particularly receptive to trying the new place.
They could have the navigation system choose a route that takes you past that new restaurant. Heck, combine this with in-car advertising. Have the entertainment system play an ad for the restaurant right as you drive by it.
When we have hands-free attention-free self-driving cars, this could be taken farther, and the whole route could be optimized around driving you by advertising businesses.
For example while in Delhi I hired a car and driver for a day to take me round all the sights. These sights also happened to include shops run by either family members of the driver, or ones he’d arranged a kickback with.
Imagine entire journeys optimised like the confectionery rack by the checkout in a supermarket or the floor plan of IKEA. Individually tailored to match your shopping interests.
The new bidding war won’t be for the top spot on the google homepage but for companies to take you past their premises. For example it’s late, Google knows you like a beer in the evening but don’t have any in the house, so the grocery store willing to pay the most gets you going past. Maybe with a voucher delivered to the in-cab screen.
It'll be one of the final vehicles ever produced with the 90s-era focus on utility and driving experience. Combined with Toyota's inertia for producing quality vehicles and 11 years of safety refinement, it'll be the vehicle I drive for as long as it's possible and then hopefully be my last.
They're going to make the overly expensive entertainment and GPS packages standard features and then fill them with ads. I just want a slot for a phone. Let me manage the car and the computer as separate pieces. Please for the love of God please.
How fun would it be if you had to watch a 30 second commercial before the car starts? Or even to open the car door.
Something like that would drive me insane.
Also someone needs to make a VR game jam "future simulator" that realizes all these terrible possibilities.
7-speed automatic but gears 4,5,6,7 are DLC.
Amen. We've seen this play out before, back when built-in navigation systems were useful. Then most people got phones with some sort of mapping program, and could buy a plastic mount that would hold them on the dashboard. Cars are phenomenally expensive mechanical devices that can work for 20 years, while portable computers often become outdated in less than 5. Bundling the two is just cruel, even worse than selling hot dog buns in 8-packs and hot dogs in 10-packs...
One annoying aspect of companies doing this is the term they steal becomes encumbered with the negative connotations of the practices behind it. The same thing happened with "metadata".
I don't even listen to commercial radio in the car, or anywhere, because the ads annoy too much, and there's plenty of BBC stations.
TL;DR over my dead body.
I realize, not so easy. But there will be people who do make it easy.
Until then, I pretty much am not in the market for new cars.
Is there a power at which you can broadcast such that nothing outside the car can detect it but the vehicle's cell device still registers it as the closest "tower" and therefore connects to it?
Then you could build your own little in-vehicle pihole and man-in-the-middle your way to an ad-free commute.
they are collecting aggregate data to help radio companies fine tune what songs to play.
TheLadders.com forces you to login to their site to disable spam e-mails from them. When you click "unsubscribe" it drops you back into their "so what kind of jobs do you want" loop rather than saying "sorry to see you go." So there is at least one example in the wild of trying to collect more data about you when you may be (as I am) trying to sever my relationship with a site rather than deepen it.