As U.S. fertility rates collapse, finger-pointing and blame follow
washingtonpost.com
washingtonpost.com
This... doesn't sound like bad news to me?
It seems like the #1 "issue" is that teenagers have stopped having kids. That's a good thing, is it not?
Young 20-year-olds not having kids could be easily explained with the higher amount of people going to college, and starting life later.
If the 25+ age group has stopped having kids, that'd be a bad thing for sure. I guess its important to keep the overall fertility rate in mind for future economic reasons, but a severe decrease in teenage pregnancy seems like a good thing overall... even if it may cause an economic issue in the future.
That's myth ( or we don't know for absolute certainty ). If that was true, it would scoop your own semen out better than your competitors. The shape has more to do with arousing females and making it easier for your sperm to reach the eggs than anything else.
> but I rarely hear arguments that monogamy is unnatural and 'going to cause problems of its own'.
Monogamy or polygamy is a far better male competitive "design" than the shape of the human penis. The best way to ensure you impregnate a woman is through monogamy or polygamy rather than semen displacement. Most male sex competition is geared towards preventing other males to mate with a female rather than scooping it out after your competitor mates with a female.
> Perhaps you could give some examples of the problems you foresee, while keeping in mind than avoiding teen pregnancy is not the same as delaying having children until the age of 45?
The best time for a female to procreate is 19 to 26. It's their peak biological fertility years. When they're most fertile and when their children are least likely to suffer from defects. Starting from 30s, it gets harder for women to get pregnant, it's more dangerous for the mother and it's when poorer quality of offspring are born.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-112136/The-female...
A woman waiting til their 30s to have offspring is like an nba player waiting til they are 40 to join the NBA.
I think there's a rather big difference between myths and things we don't know with absolute certainty. If you're open to the possibility that something is true, while knowing there isn't absolute certainty, calling it a myth seems misleading at best.
> If that was true, it would scoop your own semen out better than your competitors.
I haven't done a poll, but I suspect many males stop thrusting after orgasm. Assuming that is true then there isn't really any downside to scooping out your own old semen if you only do it in situations where you're just going to make a fresh deposit 30 seconds later.
> The shape has more to do with arousing females and making it easier for your sperm to reach the eggs than anything else.
I'd be interested in seeing the research supporting this idea. I'm not saying I think it's false, but I've heard the 'sperm-scooping' theory before, but never the 'arousing females' one.
> Monogamy or polygamy is a far better male competitive "design" than the shape of the human penis. The best way to ensure you impregnate a woman is through monogamy or polygamy rather than semen displacement.
By polygamy I think you specifically mean polygyny? Because polyandry sounds like the kind of situation where the sperm scooping would be pretty effective. And just because one mechanism to achieve something exists does not mean that other mechanisms are useful. The best way not to die of poison is simply not to consume poison, but I'm pretty happy the body is able to vomit if you (accidentally) consume poison anyway.
> The best time for a female to procreate is 19 to 26. It's their peak biological fertility years. When they're most fertile and when their children are least likely to suffer from defects. Starting from 30s, it gets harder for women to get pregnant, it's more dangerous for the mother and it's when poorer quality of offspring are born.
To quote your own article:
> Team member Dr David Dunson explained: 'Though we noted a decline in fertility in the late 20s, what we found was a decrease in the probability of becoming pregnant per menstrual cycle, not in the probability of eventually achieving a pregnancy.
So it sounds to me that although women in their late twenties are slightly less likely to get pregnant on any given menstrual cycle than women in their early twenties, the effect does not seem to significantly affect their odds of procreating.
> Starting from 30s, it gets harder for women to get pregnant, it's more dangerous for the mother and it's when poorer quality of offspring are born.
But since we're linking studies, I would like to refer to some research by the CDC [1] that shows that infant mortality is lowest for mothers between the ages of 30 and 34 (inclusive), and the infant mortality for mothers younger than 20 is the highest of all, significantly surpassing that of women over 40. Based on a report from Australia [2] which includes some information about the risk of mortality for the mother it also looks like having children before the age of 20 is inadvisable at best. Risk of death for the mother is lowest in the 20-24 range, but mysteriously the 25-29 range is at a higher risk of death than women in the 30-34 range.
Regardless, based on the data I don't think it's self-evident that the best time for women to procreate is between the ages of 19 and 26. I'll admit I haven't included numbers about birth defects. Another thing we haven't examined is the ability of the parents to raise and support their children. I suspect a 30 year old women may have the advantage over one 10 years her junior in that particular department. It is short-sighted to consider only biology when discussing the 'best' age to have children.
> A woman waiting til their 30s to have offspring is like an nba player waiting til they are 40 to join the NBA.
I don't think the numbers support that conclusion at all.
[1]: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr58/nvsr58_17.pdf (table 1, page 14) [2]: https://www.aihw.gov.au/getmedia/a8ff4563-b8f6-43b4-826e-a86... (figure 3.1, page 22)
Except when we have a preponderance of evidence indicating otherwise. Your claim is akin to someone claiming that the pinky was evolved to pick your ear and your index finger to pick your nose. We have preponderance of evidence indicating otherwise, but it's nearly impossible to prove it with absolute certainty.
If your myth was true, then there is no benefit to the penis shape. The only benefit is have sex last in orgies. That's not how human mating happens. Ever.
> Assuming that is true then there isn't really any downside to scooping out your own old semen if you only do it in situations where you're just going to make a fresh deposit 30 seconds later.
It's a bit of a downside. There certainly isn't any upside.
> By polygamy I think you specifically mean polygyny?
Obviously because polyandry hardly exists.
> Because polyandry sounds like the kind of situation where the sperm scooping would be pretty effective.
Except polyandry is practically nonexistent and in a few fringe communities it exists, the woman isn't engaging in orgies. The dominant form of mating is monogamy with a small bit of polygamy.
> So it sounds to me that although women in their late twenties are slightly less likely to get pregnant on any given menstrual cycle than women in their early twenties, the effect does not seem to significantly affect their odds of procreating.
I didn't say women in their thirties couldn't procreate. I said it was more difficult.
> But since we're linking studies, I would like to refer to some research by the CDC [1] that shows that infant mortality is lowest for mothers between the ages of 30 and 34 (inclusive),
And? Infant mortality is lower for wealthier fathers and mothers too. What does that matter in biological terms?
> Regardless, based on the data I don't think it's self-evident that the best time for women to procreate is between the ages of 19 and 26.
It isn't a matter of debate. It's a matter of science. Biologically that's a woman's prime reproductive years. Societally, things might be different.
> I suspect a 30 year old women may have the advantage over one 10 years her junior in that particular department.
Which has nothing to do with biology. And this is also why historically, women married established men 10 to 20 years older with the means to provide.
But my point was, biologically, women's prime birthing years are 19-26 or around that time range. It's science and biology. You are arguing about society. Which I wasn't.
First world countries' with shrinking populations aren't falling apart. Sure places like Japan, Italy, and Spain have economic troubles associated with a growing retirement population, and shrinking workforce. But they're still pretty good places to live in.
While global growth would decline, I'm dubious of the claim that per-capita wealth would go down. With the same pool of resources spread across fewer people, the opposite seems likely. The labor force would reduce in size, too, so manufactured goods and services may not see their prices go down. But things that are zero-sum like natural resources, real-estate, etc. should drop in cost as fewer people are competing for them.
From an individuals point of view lower population means fix resources are spread less thinly. There is less competition for jobs so you can command a large share of the pie.
Most of the developed world has the same problem on that front. The desperation by these countries when it comes to figuring out how to patch up the finances of those programs will increase by the year.
Robot (productivity) taxes will be one small answer. Another will be ever higher income taxes, also eventually including heavy wealth taxes (that comes last). Most of the developed or semi-developed world is starting to get hit on demographics at the same time. The weaker economic nations are being forced to respond first, as in Russia having to raise their pension ages so high it starts to cut people off at the life expectancy line (plunging Putin's popularity numbers in a rather startling fashion, which tells you how important the pension promises were). France is being forced to confront similar problems, with Macron trying to dress that up as market reforms. The US is temporarily avoiding it thanks to its ability to run absurdly high budget deficits for now.
I also disagree heavily with the last paragraph. Creating disincentives for automation is the last thing a country needs when its workforce is shrinking. Automating jobs is a way of expanding the amount of labor available without actually needing more people in the work force. If anything, countries that are experiencing a population decline need to invest in more automation to maintain their economic output.
Someday, though...
Stop repeating propaganda please. Entitlement programs are just simple insurance programs. There is nothing ponzi about them.
Social Security isn't a Ponzi scheme in the sense that there was fraudulent intent. Nevertheless, a lack of political will to finance current benefits does burden future generations. "Adjusting benefits downwards" won't sit too well with people who worked 30 or 40 years and expect to enjoy a certain standard of living.
Why Was Social Security Designed Like A Ponzi Scheme? https://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoodman/2015/08/13/why-was-...
Is Social Security a Ponzi scheme? "Social Security has a funding gap equal to 0.7 percent of GDP over the next 75 years. We could wipe that gap out by lifting the payroll tax cap (right now, payroll taxes only apply to the first $107,000 of income) or by adjusting benefits downwards." https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/is-soci...
Social Security is an insurance program. That you don't understand how insurance programs work is your problem.
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/tr/2015/tr2015.pdf
> Total expenditures in 2014 were $859 billion. Total income was $884 billion, which consisted of $786 billion in non-interest income and $98 billion in interest earnings. Asset reserves held in special issue U.S. Treasury securities grew from $2,764 billion at the beginning of the year to $2,789 billion at the end of the year.
This is not in any shape or form a ponzi scheme.
Which the generally accepted way of analyzing insurance programs is by looking at the inflow and outflows plus interest on reserves.
> which in the early stages of a ponzi scheme can also be similar
The Social Security Act passed in 1935.
> The way that social security in the US is a ponzi scheme is that the benefits paid out are not interest or earnings on the amounts paid in by the people receiving the benefits. They are paid for by new people paying in to the system. That is almost the definition of a Ponzi scheme. That is almost the definition of a Ponzi scheme.
No that is the exact definition of an insurance program. Insurance programs are not investments they are about spreading risk. Which the Social Security Program in the US does a perfectly fine job of.
Social security is a pension. It guarantees a future stream of income in return for payments now. It is subject to the same actuarial risk as insurance (so, predicted payout period ends up being longer than expected, or returns on payments are lower than expected), but it is subject to an additional risk if it is unfunded (which Social Security is). That risk being that inflows become insufficient in the future to cover the outflows promised 40 years prior.
That being said, the important distinction still stands: Social Security is unfunded, which makes it subject to a kind of risk that funded insurance programs are not exposed to.
No.
> It protects you against a loss of some kind,
Social security protects you against outliving your savings when you can no longer work.
> and only provides that protection while you are paying for it.
This is an argument from ignorance. And it's incorrect.
For another, it’s still not a Ponzi scheme. It makes no promises for returns, and simply requires working age people to set aside money for retired people. If the ratio changes, there is no requirement for the retired people to be paid the same money they were a year ago.
It’s not a Ponzi scheme in any fashion. It’s pretty much a direct, transparent transfer of wealth from the young to the elderly.
Social Security isn't a ponzi scheme for a number of reasons, first it's not a security. Second there is no nonexistent enterprise. Instead it's structure is entirely that of an government mandated insurance program.
The only way that anyone can retire is to rely on the productivity of people who are still working. Saving up money for retirement does not avoid this. Your saved up money just lets you buy someone else's future productivity, you can't actually live on it.
This clearly isn't viable so instead we have kids that take care of us when we become old.
Like the stock market, then. And pension funds.
We live in a Democracy, and the elderly have the most free time and seem to be the biggest population right now (Baby Boomers). As such, the elderly are always going to be the most powerful voting block (doubly so now that Boomers, the biggest generation by population, is hitting retirement age).
Good luck "reducing spending on the elderly" in the coming years. Its politically infeasible on population dynamics alone.
When the "lack of children" issue starts to hit 40 years from now, Millennial are going to be retiring. Millennials are the 2nd largest population after the Boomers. So the same issue will hit us again in the long term.
If taxes to pay for the elderly do become very onerous, 85-75% of the population is going to be against them politically. There are relatively fair measures to pay for their healthcare, like wealth taxes for people beyond retirement age and increasing estate taxes. Or a more politically feasible measure is to make social security means-tested.
By far the best solution would be to mandate people to pay into their own retirement funds - Singapore does this. But of course, that would have had to be put in place decades ago.
More output while at the same time reducing workers means more productivity is required and to increase the productivity per worker we need far more automation. Things like truck/taxi automation might cause a temporary mass unemployment problem for unskilled workers but at the same time also solve the worker shortage that will happen when the population starts aging massively.
The idea that, the number of human being working is important at all, is rapidly becoming an obsolete issue.
And productivity is funny. When folks move down the economic spectrum (from technical to office to labor etc) its called 'full employment' but almost by definition productivity of point-of-sale or labor is very low. Definitely there's no improvement for the individual.
Technically speaking, for all known biological species, the size of population is the primary indicator of health and well-being. Shrinking population indicates either inability to adapt, or some kind of malaise.
Instead of more natural resources available per person, a less productive economy eventually provides for fewer resources in terms of goods, services and capital like installed infrastructure per person that are necessary to thrive.
Sociologically is probably 35+.
So there is an unsolvable problem here, you have to compromise one way or the other.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/cusp/201211/whats-th...
Men are biased towards younger women because they don't bear the risks of pregnancy.
I stopped reading after that. There's no such thing as 'fresh' oocytes. The author is just making stuff for his purpose as he goes along.
The ideal age for having kids lies somewhere in the range of late 20's to early 30's. Here both biological and sociological advantages convene.
> Mitochondria in oocyte aging: current understanding
> The oocyte is the largest cell found in multicellular organisms. Mitochondria, as the energy factories for cells, are found in high numbers in oocytes, as they provide the energy for oocyte maturation, fertilization, and embryo formation via oxidative phosphorylation. Failure of assisted reproduction is mainly attributed to oocyte aging and increased aneuploidy.
This seems addressable by biotechnology, artificial wombs and so on. At a certain level of technological sophistication, all problems become engineering problems.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4418963/
35-39 year olds have slightly higher rates of complications, but the rates are still lower than in teenage mothers. This rank ordering persists even after adjusting for demographics, type of birth, and comorbidities (table 5).
This issue probably has very little to do with sperm quality or the availability of abortion, but with our culture in general. The assumption that teen pregnancy = bad, the stigma around it, etc. In your comment, the mentality that life starts later. Like, life starts at birth.
I'd imagine that same mentality is responsible for the loneliness epidemic written about in the same places. This idea that life is some achievement to be gained after doing things like going to college. Like, you can't live your life until you've completed some rites of passage, except they get increasingly more detached from reality every decade. And as we read about in the WaPo and other sources, has the college rite of passage really served the amount of people who have gone through it? Student loan debt, bad job prospects, starting life later...
Another interesting fact, younger couples have healthier children. Not like, 13 young, but late teens early 20s young. As couples age, the risk of genetic faults and things like autism rise.
tldr, it's not sperm count or abortion. Our rites of passage into adulthood suck.
Of course, for a lot of other people, college, and starting life later is absolutely the right answer, economically, socially, etc. I’m not saying that everyone needs to strive for the traditional nuclear family and forego college, I’m saying that there’s an incredible lack of respect for the people that do, much to everyone’s detriment. Does a woman who enjoys the idea of being a mother and a homemaker really need to go to college? Is it ok for women to want to be president, or to bake cookies for their family. It seems like we’ve really told them ‘no, if your goal is to bake cookies and make a warm home, then you’re pretty much a garbage proletarian.’
Disclaimer, I’m a man, talking about what women can or can’t do, so take it with a grain of salt, hopefully a woman can provide a perspective based on experience.
Because for all the nostalgia, teenage girls who got pregnant and their children were heavily stigmatised and paid the price. People who married as teenagers divorced more often. When divorce was not available due to laws, the nad marriage remained bad including domestic violence and such.
It is not just that she won't get education even if she had brain for it. She will have hard time getting and keeping job. She will be completely dependent of help of other people and such situation royally sux. Which does not mean she won't be lonely, because when you depend on people they are less likely to treat you like an equality friend.
Lack of respect toward blue colar translates into much less respect for both pregnant teenager and homemaker. The reality is, the warm homemaker happily making cookies is largely rose colored fiction. It kind of ignores reality of it all, for both genders. Men prefered being with male friends over warm home anyway and women were butt of joke anyway.
Speaking about loneliness, being stay at home mom can be loneliest experience ever. Lonely guys who have jobs and online games are not nearly as lonely as homemaker situation.
Edited to add: you know the stereotype of women being on the phone so much and being extremely talkative? Both are because homemaker is completely alone whole day doing everything alone except when she is on the phone and thus talks more in social situation or when husband comes home.
My whole point is that people, men and women, shouldn’t be stigmatized for following traditional gender norms any more than they should be stigmatized for creating new ones, and I feel like that may not be the case today.
All of this hinges on my initial point that lowered rates of fertility are caused more by culural reasons than lowered sperm count or the availability of abortion. I’ve got no real evidence to back that up, maybe it’s just plastic in our water. Doesn’t seem like any of the researchers in the article know either.
The traditional roles split worked as long as there was a lot of real home work and not much choice. Then it worked as status symbol for a while, but it was status wifes who eventually rebelled.
Unmarried teenage pregnancy is not what people generally means when they talk about traditional role of gender. Unmarried pregnant teenager is better off now compared to whatever you means by traditional time.
Large reason for lowered teenage pregnancy rates is sexual education - kids know about contraception and know to use it. Conversely sexual discussion being taboo in the past meant more teenagers pregnant.
The impact on education is easily avoidable by doing exactly what the parent commenter suggested: having children in extended families so the mother isn't the sole or primary caregiver for the new child. This frees the mother up to finish school, continue her career, etc.
Lots of the trouble with "teen pregnancy" is really not about age. It's about not having a stable marriage with a decent breadwinner. Pregnancy in the mid-late teen years is biologically ideal.
Dropping out of college or even high school isn't so bad. It makes perfect sense if you value children and think that family comes first. You have to start early if you want to have a big healthy family.
High school drop outs with or without children do very badly in this economy. But when you have children while relying on unstable minimum wage income from irregular hours, then it is all triple harder.
Lastly, teenage years are not biologically ideal. Teenagers have more pregnancy complications, including expensive ones and dangerous ones. As in, having child during your twenties is healthier for you and child. Both under 18 and over 35 are associated with more risks.
Not that the current economy is bad, because it isn't and many high school dropouts are getting jobs now, but I'm not seeing how that relates to the economic well-being of a full-time mother. The father could be a decade older, settled into a career as a petroleum engineer or stock trader.
It's a given that a study of pregnancy age will fail to compensate for factors unrelated to age. The big and obvious one: on average, there is something different about the personality of a person who gets pregnant at that age. (and thus unhealthful choices, etc.) I do not accept any claims to have properly accounted for non-age factors. The ideal age is going to depend on your DNA (when do you reach full size where it counts?) but FWIW that is likely near age 16 for many people.
My favourite policy to increase birth rates is to give parents a percentage of their children's income tax revenue. Standard econ says we just need to internalize some of these positive externalities. This has the advantage of scaling with the wealth of the parents, as economic productivity has a significant heritable component.
Though this policy triggers an intense moral disgust response in everyone I've proposed it to, so likely not possible unless things get very desperate. But I think it has a chance of working, which is more than I can say of most natalist policies I have seen.
https://jasoncollins.blog/2018/10/11/an-evolutionary-project...
As contraceptives becomes well understood and taught kids are opting to have a better quality of life and not reproduce. They put it off so they can build a career.
When they build a career they get used to a certain quality of life. And so by mid thirties they don't want to have 3 kids. Of course they delay having kids till they are financially stable enough to have kids and not worry about money and hardship. Because who wants to voluntarily go through extreme hardship.
And so as cost goes up and pay goes down with available contraceptives people are just not having kids until they have the financial stability which many might not have.
For each of the specific things it suggests it might be, it would have to be something that is affecting the whole world, maybe at different rates around the world but the whole world nonetheless.
Hans Rosling in one of his videos said we see the birth rate drop when women are educated and have economic opportunities outside the house.
I'm late 20's and I want a child, but I just can't see myself ever being able to afford one. It's certainly a luxury to responsibly have a child.
What would happen if 2 out of 3 of these issues were solved, or at least greatly reduced? In Europe they have much more generous maternal/paternal benefits, as well as universal healthcare. Yet despite this, their birthrates are even lower than ours.
Europe generally has the paid parental leave and universal healthcare. Some parts even have the free college tuition. Where are the kids?
People who focus on families don't need paid parental leave. There is a full-time parent permanently at home. Not that everybody needs to go to college, but that is often cheap if you start with a community college AA degree and then transfer to a state school. Most people don't have much of a healthcare problem.
And, you know, make your kids get a fucking job and pay for their own education.
One of them at least, children are also fairly disruptive and a huge responsibility if you assume you're actually becoming responsible for the education and upbringing of a human being.
Generally speaking mainland europe has low hospital bills, paid parental leave, subsidised daycare and education, but the fertility rates are still extremely low, and children are still horrendously expensive.
Children are not unaffordable. They require sacrifice. In my culture (within the U.S.) it is common to have 4+ children, often in single-income, middle-class homes. Raising 4-6 children on an income of $60K doesn't attract any attention at all.
To read posts like the gp that claim they can't afford a single child seems ridiculous from my perspective. I grant that my perspective is ignorant of their specific circumstances. But my wife and I welcomed our first two children while we were starving college students making < $20K/year.
I don't own a Tesla. My children have worked to pay for their college debt free (as did I). I don't have a home in the Hamptons. I don't live in California. I've never been to Europe. My kids haven't gone to Stanford.
But I have the most amazing children in the world. I wouldn't trade any of them for a Tesla. Or a MBP. Or equity in whatever startup you are slaving away at.
I am glad there is Tesla in the world, and people with MBPs. I don't think my choices are necessarily better than your choices. I don't regret my choices, and I flatly reject most claims by people that they don't have a choice.
They played youth soccer, and high school sports. They have learned foreign languages. They've worked as janitors and at supermarkets and as research assistants.
I'm not sure what "necessity" they have not enjoyed.
Raising children in metropolitan areas includes raising children in Memphis and Dallas and Boise. It doesn't have to mean San Francisco. And for that matter, who says you have to raise children in a metropolitan area? That is not a necessity.
As I wrote before, it doesn't bother me if you choose not to have children, or if you choose to live in San Francisco, or if you choose to raise children in San Francisco. It just bothers me to see the claim that it is impossible to provide the necessities to children today.
Children are expensive. No doubt. That is true in NYC or the Himalayas. I believe that to raise a child properly will require sacrifices. That is true for a parent who makes $16K or $16MM.
But I reject the claim for the vast majority of people that raising children properly is out of financial reach. When I read that claim from 20-somethings making twice my current salary, I shake my head. I translate that claim to, "I am not willing to give up my current lifestyle to have children." That is a much different statement.
I agree it’s a lot easier to raise kids when you started 20+ years ago when stuff was cheaper and you make them pay their own way through college.
You only need private schooling if you are in a city and don't have a stay-at-home parent. Suburban schools are usually OK. You can homeschool.
In most states, you don't need a college tuition fund. For example, a student in my state can get an AA degree for about $5000, and can then upgrade it to a BS degree for an additional $15000. If you birth a kid every 2 years, you'll end up with 2 kids in college at once and the cost will be $10000 per year. That is 1/6 of a typical family income, or about 1/12 of a typical STEM job.
I had my first children when I made less than 1/3 of what I make now and new college grads are making 4/5 of what I make now. And I'm still raising children. You can argue about inflation or whatever you want. I don't buy it.
Just admit that you are not willing to give up anything to accommodate children.
I'm not saying that you should give up anything. Those are your choices. But you do have a choice.
I have neighbors who make $40K and raise children--yes, more than one. Right now. Today. In the U.S. No welfare.
It is within the reach of most everyone on HN to become a middle school math teacher in Kansas and raise a family. Very few make that choice. But they do have the choice.
This is literally ignoring factual evidence. Inflation has happened, there's no denying it. Wages have stagnated since the early 70's with a good portion of the country making less than they did in the 70's, or are making exactly what they made in the 70's. Chances are your "less than 1/3 of what I make now" was probably what you make now, or was at least worth much more than that same salary would be today. The cost of almost everything that's necessary & essential has risen by insane amounts since your children have been born.
Try an inflation calculator: https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl
I don't need an inflation calculator to know how much I am paying this year for braces and glasses and broken bones and Prom and car insurance for a new driver. I know what it took to raise children 20+ years ago. I did it. I know what it takes to raise children right now today. I am doing it.
Yes, "the cost of almost everything that's necessary & essential has risen by insane amounts." So you have to choose to trim things that are less essential. A baby carseat can run $250. A $4 coffee every workday adds up to $800/year.
I'm not insensitive to those who feel overwhelmed by the commitment required to raise children today. I admit that it's a little amusing that some seem to think that the commitment wasn't overwhelming 20 years ago. Maybe it was easier 20 years ago. I honestly don't think so.
I think as a poster said below, your views have probably not been updated for a very long time. The cost of everything essential has gone up since you had your children.
You have chosen to take a job outside of Seattle. Seattle is crazy expensive right now. A $50K job 140 miles away in Yakima might be a better value. Or look 300 miles away in Pullman or Spokane.
Eight hour days, 15 minute commutes, ...
Gonzaga is looking for IT Techs. WSU is hiring into IT like mad right now. May be a pay cut for you. May drop your cost of living 50%. Definitely gives you more time to responsibly care for a child if that is your priority.
BECU is looking for a Security Tech Admin. Banner Furnace and Fuel needs an IT Specialist. Not as prestigious or glamorous as your current job? Well, if that's your priority...
But you have a choice.
From my hometown (edit: just to be clear, this is a low-CoL city and my friends mostly 24-27 years old), no one that I know owns a tesla or similar luxury object. A larger percentage of my friends from back home are married compared to my friends from university, but still almost none of them have started families. I can't speak for them all, but the impression I get is that the people who are on track for something that could be considered a career (teaching, for example) are focusing on their careers. Those who didn't end up with a career but did go to college are more or less drowning in college debt. Those who didn't go to college are trying to work their way up to a higher education through part-time community college and what not.
In other words, I agree with your central thesis that this is by choice that the birthrate is declining. In particular, the fact that women now have the choice to start careers and earn money instead of going to college for an "MRS" degree and then starting a family (I know exactly one person in my high school class who wanted to do this, and she does indeed have two beautiful children today). But difficulty getting debt-free for college graduates, and difficulty owning property, are certainly contributing factors, because it provides external pressure on couples that they need to spend more energy+effort on their career. As I understand, raising children requires a considerable amount of energy+effort, so the conflict there should be quite obvious.
Without fail, the people I see having kids are all people who grew up with an economic head start, and further distanced themselves with extremely high paying jobs (private equity, hedge fund, commercial real estate, VC, big tech).
I don’t know anyone with kids where the husband is not killing it financially, and they all still complain about having limited money.
This is true in the Bay Area, where I live now, and back in Texas (Dallas, Austin, San Antonio), where I’m from.
We now have an entire generation that has been saddled with crippling debt and has been given little to nothing in the way of tools to escape. Many of them saw something similar happen to their own parents, watching them struggle to keep the boat floating as they grew up. Is it really so strange that this group would approach having children with great caution and only commit once they acquire some level of assurance of reliable and reasonably strain-free access to resources? This is especially true for those who’ve “made it” to some extent and have managed to procure freedom from debt — they’re going to do everything in their power to avoid winding up in those circumstances a second time.
I don’t know, to me the attitude reads as more calculated and responsible than anything else.
Lower income people often trend towards the former, higher income people towards the latter. Of course there are exceptions - some lower income people dedicate great resources towards their kids, some wealthier families don't.
The opportunity cost as well. Having and raising a child means there are things you can't do because you have to raise/take care of the child.
> If someone lives in a place where housing is cheap and don't expect anything beyond public primary and secondary school then another kid only really costs some extra groceries and clothes.
At the end of the day, even for people with low COL raising a child to adulthood is still on the order of tens of thousands of dollars. Planning might also be a factor there, it's likely more present higher up the income ladder, meaning the wealthier segments see the kind of costs associated middle/long term and go "maybe not yet".
Raising a kid to the expectations of an upper or even upper-middle class family costs orders of magnitude more than raising a kid to the expectations of a poor family. But said upper middle class family probably doesn't make a proportionally larger amount. I'd consider someone "poor" if they make 20-25k a year and "wealthy" if they make 200-250k+. But the costs of raising a child to the expectations of the latter is probably more than 10 times greater. Probably 20-30 times greater. Thus why kids are more proportionally expensive for higher income class people.
The best predictor for someone’s economic security in life is the zip code they grow up in.
Of course there are people who don't have much money and still do their best to raise their kids as best they can. But the reality is that things like education and upbringing do have a significant impact, and often getting the best out of those things takes a significant mount of money.
Hence, why Westerners are waiting to have kids and dedicating more resources towards them. Furthermore things integral to raising children like education have actually increased in cost over the past several decades.
I hadn't considered it before, but a gradual change in what age people choose to have children would show up as a temporary drop in fertility (for an easy example, think about everyone delaying their next child for five years). A quick google search show's a strong correlation between steeply increasing age of first child and low apparent birth rates. In particular, US fertility rates were even lower in the 1970's, another time when age of first child was increasing rapidly.
Back of the napkin math shows that we'd see (very roughly) 80% of true fertility if not adjusted for, making the true fertility rate slightly above replacement levels (about 2.2)
Anecdotally, I look at my Facebook and there are a lot of women on there who will really have to kick things into high gear ASAP to hit two children (since they’re all in their mid 30s and childless).
I'm like uh.... what about cost of living outpacing salaries? Cost of medical care? Education debt?
All the young people I know aren't avoiding pregnancy because of their social media engagement, they are however wondering out loud in conversations with me if they can afford children.
"Economist Lyman Stone has blamed the United States’ less-than-generous parental leave and pay policies. Human Life International, a missionary group, blames “pro-abortion population control groups like Planned Parenthood.” Tucker Carlson claims it has to do with immigration, arguing that immigrants drive wages down, which hurts the attractiveness of men as potential spouses — “thus reducing fertility.”"
Folks should just have children. They'll discover that they will make it work, just like their parents made it work, and so on back down the line.
Or not, I suppose, if they have some philosophical reason not to have kids. But if they want to have them, they should have them, and adjust their lives accordingly.
Working young people are looking at the "will I ever be able to afford to live in a house" problem.
It is not at all uncommon for a 30 year old to be living with random individuals.
Child rearing? You may as well ask a starving man his opinion on gluten free bread.
Edit: originally said 160 not 300, was incorrect
Edit: just checked.. ha! We're paying 300 not 160.
It's also insurance that you'll be able to support yourself if something happens to your partner or you split up.
How so, whizkid?