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Comment by moreira | Hacker News Reader

Living in the UK, I've come to believe that gov.uk is the model that all governments should follow. No matter what I need to do, gov.uk has all the information I could need, and tells me where to go and what to do.

Their greatest success isn't the website, although it is incredibly clean and easy to use. Their greatest success is distilling bureaucracy down to easy-to-follow instructions - as highlighted in this article. Their content is impeccable. Lists, bullet points, jargon-free "here's what you need to do", for any issue you might have in your life.

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The Plain English Campaign with their Crystal Mark accreditation deserves much credit here too. They've been successfully removing jargon and 200 word convoluted sentences from business and governments since the 70s.

gov.uk is a fine continuation of that tradition.

The global financial crisis has a lot to do with it. A ton of the best talent in London were at startups and design agencies which went under; a lot of them went to the Government and did a really rigorous job; even though they've now moved on, the culture they put in place was bulletproof.

Yes, in recent years many top GDS employees have left[0].

Most common past 'companies' for GDS employees on LinkedIn are Department for Work and Pensions, Cabinet Office, Ministry of Justice & Home Office[1]. All the people I know of there used to work at the BBC.

[0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-38320072

[1] https://imgur.com/a/Gvk1EBV

I'm more measured on this.

The "plain English campaign" often boils down to dumbing down copy and removing all words that a 12 year old might not know.

There are many terms, especially legal terms, which have a precise meaning and which are used for a reason.

Teach vocabulary and good English in schools!

In most cases, it is possible to convey the same information in a concise manner to the average person.

Just like with math, I get the impression that sometimes the level of jargon/legalese used is an attempt to differentiate oneself from the everyday person. The same information could theoretically be put forward in a way which is understandable to all, not just those with a degree.

It's difficult to convey the same information.

From experience, the information provided on gov.uk can be incorrect because it is simplified too much. Very important aspects are lost and it becomes misleading.

As the saying goes, simplify as much as possible, but not more.

> but not more

Where there is essential complexity, explain the complexity clearly and skillfully.

The book Style: Towards Clarity and Grace is a good instruction manual, especially for those who have read Strunk & White

Although note that there's a non-zero number of professional linguists and grammarians seem to consider Strunk & White to be prescriptivist nonsense that you're better off ignoring.

I'd be very interested in reading a critique of Strunk & White if you've got a link.

> prescriptivist

Isn't all advice on how to accomplish a goal going to be prescriptivist?

The average reading age in the UK is 9 years old. Are you proposing that the Gov.uk website be inaccessible to the population it serves?

Don't forget, unlike other websites and apps, people do not use Gov.uk of their free will. They are forced to use it, in the sense that it is the official source of information and services from the government.

Citation? I mean, I believe you (I teach in a university here :~ ) but I'd like to se it backed up.

I agree we should aim for good vocabulary and English, but we can't forget many who have English as second or third language, or were unable to get quite the same level of English from school.

When it's a statute or legal judgement I'm happy to see the necessary precision in terminology. When it's a passport application, or an electric bill I'll take the simplest terminology viable. So I can spent the least time skimming it and still get the right information. Much like writing for the web. :)

I don't regret the death of overly flowery Victorian formal business writing. Notwithstanding your views heretofore. :)

Theres a problem I've found where you can't be sure if bullets are AND conditions or OR conditions.

E.g. in https://www.gov.uk/30-hours-free-childcare?step-by-step-nav=... the eligibility section the first section of bullets is AND and the second is OR.

It's easy enough on this page, but when you are looking at tax rules it can be hard to tell.

The NHS (National Health Service) website has had a recent update to their homepage and follows a similar style to gov.uk:

https://www.nhs.uk/

Here what the old homepage looked like:

https://imgur.com/a/Xi1ZHYN

They recently published a style guide and it is excellent https://beta.nhs.uk/service-manual/

Hadn't noticed this redesign, looks like they've done a really good job.

I wonder if it's just been inspired by GOV.UK or if the same group of people (or just some of them) have been involved. Either way seems like they've made a real improvement.

Except when you need to log in. Email doesn't work, have to remember a government gateway ID that everyone forgets because they use it once a year.

To be fair, government gateway isn’t actually developed or maintained by GDS (the organisation responsible for GOV.UK)

Psst...put it in your password manager.

Now that all UK passport holders have NFC passports, they should just say 'touch your passport to the back of your phone to log in'.

The passports support challenge-response auth, allowing gov.uk to securely identify the passport in a way a device cannot spoof, and the Web NFC API is implemented quite widely now.

Not living in the UK but being a UK citizen, I agree. If I need a form, I can find it and associated guidance quickly.

The equivalent on my corporate intranet means navigating multiple intranet sites and conflicting guidance.

What would be nice for a next-step for gov.uk is removing the paper forms entirely for fully electronic filing 'self service' for everything. I understand that takes time.

As a UK citizen living abroad, there are still some things that are not possible for me to do via hmrc.gov.uk, and still requires paper forms or passcodes to be posted to me (which can take weeks).

The first Government As a Service?

Having luved in the UK for 6 years and now in Germany, I agree with you.

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