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Comment by strig | Hacker News Reader

Mayo clinic says 70-85% of your max heart rate [1] counts as "vigorous". Not sure what the zones on your monitor are set at.

[1]: https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/fitness/in-dept...

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That would mean heart rate around 126 to 153 for me, evidently. Which, actually sounds low. Which I guess is good for me? :)

I was using "zones" per the Strava app lingo. I rarely make zone 5, which would be 174+ heart rate. I spend a fair bit of time in the 160 range, though.

If you're just using a formula your heart rate zones could be quite far out.

For example, 220-age suggests my maximum HR is 178 and my threshold HR (85% of this) is 151, but in fact my max HR (determined empirically) is 188 and my threshold HR (based on an actual threshold test) is 162.

How do you do a threshold test? Do you need a doctor?

For cycling, I do a long warmup then ride as hard as I can (uninterrupted) for 30 minutes and take the average HR for the last 20 of the 30 minutes. There are online calculators you can plug this value into to give you the 5 zones.*

I do a test every 3 months, as the zones can shift as you get fitter.

Running might use a different protocol, but the same principle applies.

* These days I base my training on a 3-zone system: low intensity, below aerobic threshold; medium intensity, between aerobic and anaerobic (lactate) threshold, and high intensity, above lactate threshold. This is the system preferred by researchers, as it's based on real physiological markers.

Translating the 3 zone system into the 5 zone: low intensity equates to zones 1-2, medium is zone 3 and zone 4 up to your (lactate) threshold value, and high intensity is everything above this, i.e. the top part of zone 4 and all of zone 5.

So 'vigorous' per the Mayo Clinic would be medium intensity on the 3 zone system.

Thanks! I'll have to consider doing a test like you describe downthread sometime. Most of my biking is just getting home from work. And, well, that is only 20 minutes on the bike. Large hill, but still just 20 minutes.

The canonical running test is to run an all out 5K. You can then derive pretty simple training paces based on tables. See: Daniels Running Formula. Or any number of training calculators on the Internet. A 5K is a very good measure if your overall running fitness and a pretty good predictor of race performance from 10k to Marathon. It helps you set up good training paces. Then it just comes down to volume. When you find your HR creeping out of zone don't be ashamed to walk to chill it out.

I primarily do cycling to commute. That said, I've signed up for a 5k this Dec. Will make sure to wear my heart monitor and see how I do.

You can definitely go out too hard in a 5K, it isn't a 400, 800, or 1600M effort, but if you aren't hurting and questioning your life choices the last mile you weren't going hard enough :)

That Mayo Clinic page has another way to calculate target HR.

Target HR = RestingHR + (MaxHR - RestingHR) x 0.85

So, if your RestingHR = 70 :

Target HR = 70 + (178 - 70) x 0.85 = 162

Mine's even more out... I'm a full 20 bpm higher than that formula would suggest. Mid-30s and still do over 200 bpm at the end of a 5K.

As an ultra runner I can tell you 130-150 is "vigorous" in medical literature. Actually for anyone over 30, maintaining 150+ is probably threshold and providing you different kinds of adaptation. Ideally you spend 80% of your training time in Z3. You use Z4 to train VO2 max and Lactate Threshold. VO2 max is not very trainable. Lactate Threshold is. Z5, once you are "trained" and can run in Z3 for extended periods of time (30+ minutes) is almost purely for speed work and learning to run faster. It helps develop coordination and push through barriers. It is mostly anaerobic, so some amount of intervals in Z5 is good. Z4 is longer tempo work and fast/hard intervals.

Marathons are meant to be run at the edge of Z3 so you avoid hitting your lactate threshold. Think of your ability to run in each zone as separate gas tanks. Your Z5 gas tank is very small. Your Z4 gas tank can be trained, but is still relatively small. Your Z3 gas tank is basically unlimited (ultra marathon pace, 50+ non stop miles possible for almost any healthy human). Cardio is not about suffering.

Most people should be fast walking to maintain Z3 rather than suffer it out in Z4 and Z5 when they are getting started.

Is it the same for biking as running? My hunch is I was silly and looking at distance when I thought I could get more out of cycling. That is, I know I can bike 30+ miles with fairly little effort. Running 2 miles near kills me. (Granted, some of that is hernia related. Fixing that, but not expecting it to be easy any time soon.)

Checking my last long bike ride, I see I maintained 120 heart rate for majority of it. Which means I spent most of the time in zone 2, and makes sense that would be easy to maintain. (Contrasted with my last commute, where I cover 270 ft of elevation in about 7 minutes, mostly at about 160 heart rate...)

A few years back when I was looking at Tour de France stats, IIRC a lot (most?) of those guys spend all day around 120 bpm too. The difference is that they are putting out pretty much twice the power that I do for that same effort.

And probably you too, given I have a hill around the same size on my commute that takes me around 7 minutes too.

https://www.strava.com/segments/622627 is the hill I'm talking about. Agreed that they are likely putting in much more power than I can at that heart rate.

My naive understanding is that I can push more time in higher heart rates and slowly pull up what I can do in the lower ones. That said, I'm just aiming to be consistently in the 6 minute time frame for that hill by next year. As things are, I'm quite winded if I hit the low 7 minute time frame. So, trying to pay attention to any methods I could use to make that better.

Yep, just a little steeper than mine: https://www.strava.com/segments/623328

AFAIK your 'naive' understanding is pretty right on. I subscribe to the philosophy of spending as much time as possible in the "sweet spot" (search on that term), which is toned down just a bit from the best effort you can do in an hour.

Yep. Cycling has some different terminology, but the basics of zone training are the same. How much time per zone, intervals, training cycles, it all works the same in terms of adaptation.

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