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Comment by beaconstudios | Hacker News Reader

> don't be the guy who has a shitty core and is trying to squat 250+

I don't really get this advice. I compound lift and when I was lifting regularly I peaked at 145kg/320lbs. I've never done focused core exercises with any regularity, I just focused on good form/posture and a neutral spine. Perhaps compound lifting itself is enough to build the core strength you need for squatting? Obviously I wouldn't recommend other people leave it out, but it doesn't seem to have done me any harm.

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It's a confusing statement. Squatting is a core exercise.

I've never performed a plank or crunch in the many, many, years I've been squatting and it's never been a problem. If you try any sort of slow steady progression you don't need to - things adapt to take care of themselves. I've put well over 500 lbs on the bar and never worried about my core.

"I've never performed a plank or crunch in the many, many, years I've been squatting and it's never been a problem. If you try any sort of slow steady progression you don't need to - things adapt to take care of themselves. I've put well over 500 lbs on the bar and never worried about my core."

In a perfect world, this is true - and I wish you continued good luck and health.

However, you should reflect on the mechanical advantages and levers that your body is capable of producing as it curves and flexes around a particular joint ...

500 lbs distributed nicely and evenly across all of your vertebrae works quite nicely ... but all you need is a little twist ... a little hiccup ... just two or three vertebrae coming into line instead of a gentle curve ... and you suddenly have multi-hundreds of pounds on one little lever.

Not to spoil it for you, but the squishy little disc loses.

I am a huge proponent of back squats without aids - like belts - for the purpose of developing natural core strength like what you have experienced, but it is very, very cheap insurance to work your abs/back/sides in addition.

> I am a huge proponent of back squats without aids - like belts - for the purpose of developing natural core strength like what you have experienced, but it is very, very cheap insurance to work your abs/back/sides in addition.

Belts are aids in that they allow you to literally flex your stomach muscles and valsalva to a great degree - they provide no intrinsic support, instead providing something to brace your own muscles against. This is literally the argument one makes for core work! I also agree - it's important to learn to be able to squat without a belt, and I largely will with the exception of my heaviest sets of the day. It helps you appreciate the assistance and work on your own unaided valsalva.

If you do slip into this catastrophic scenario you're visualizing, being able to hold a static plank for 3 minutes isn't going to help that - you haven't trained the muscle at all to do what it needs to do at that moment - stop being static and move. Having the sheer grunt power and experience of having hundreds of lbs on your back for years is what's going to save you, and I'd argue that there's plenty of muscle groups that you've built up over the years to keep you safe in just such a circumstance - your spine isn't floating in a vat supported only by abs. I've dumped the bar, failed lifts, things have slipped, but I've never slipped a disc because I am strong enough to survive the load.

Do accidents happen and people get hurt? Absolutely, but both runners and old ladies slip discs too.

Eventually this is going to catch up with you. It only takes 6 minutes every few days to train your core. Neglecting it WILL lead to injury, no matter how good your habits are under the barbell.

> Neglecting it WILL lead to injury

I would love to see some evidence of this. Here's Brian Shaw's workout routine. Without question one of the strongest men in the world, I see no dedicated core work:

http://deadliftworkouts.com/train-strongman-series-brian-sha...

Core work is not a bad thing, but it's not required.

My impression is that if you have good posture to begin with, you might just "lift right" off the bat. I have to do a ton of supplementary work to balance out my posture issues. And the progress is slower than people generally like to admit.

my posture has always been pretty terrible (until I got to higher weights and my posture has straightened out) so I'm not sure its that. Though I think squatting with a low bar and not moving up in weight until I was happy with my form may have helped to compensate for that.

It could be that we are taking different approaches to do the same thing - you hold off on moving up in weight and repeat the exercises, whereas I hold off, repeat the exercise, and do supplementary glute and core work to avoid my spine curving too much in the "right" way.

yeah that makes sense. Either way is a "safety first" approach, which is the most important factor.

Strange. From lifting I developed what seems to be pretty common: anterior pelvic tilt. My lower back muscles being tight would pull my hips back. This went away with some stretching. Also I stopped doing Yates rows which I think compounded that issue. I'm happy posture-wise but do get the sense my shoulders should naturally fall further back. I think shoulder droop is the hardest thing to get rid of if you work a desk job.

What stretches did you do to help with your APT? I think I have it slightly and would like to work on it.

I would stretch my hip flexors by lying on my stomach and grabbing one leg at a time by the heel, and also go into a super-low squat position while holding on to something for support, letting the low back really stretch. Another one was lying on my stomach, arms above me somewhat wider than shoulder width, and twisting from one side to the other. I'm not sure which of these helped most but between them my APT disappeared.

This might be an example what the GP meant about doing core work in addition to squatting. If your lower back is strong, your abs need to be strong too to keep things in balance.

if you're working your lower back during squats, your form is incorrect and you're risking injury. Your spine should be neutral throughout the movement - the lifting force comes primarily from your quads and glutes.

Yes, you should not good-morning the weight.

But if you are low-bar squatting, your back isn't going to be completely upright, and so keeping a significant weight at a angle requires muscular contraction. Your back is going to get worked.

Hell, even high-bar isn't completely upright, and even if it was, you'll get tension there.

Er, it's part of the posterior chain and squats will always target the lower back to an extent, both high and low-bar. Squats were one of Arnold's favorite lower-back exercises. No way you walk away from heavy squats without feeling it there.

to be clear, I meant working as in bearing load - of course your lower back will be active in stabilising your spine through the movement, as will your core. So you're going to feel that, especially if you're keeping tight. But your lower back shouldn't be generating the force necessary to lift the weight.

OK, we agree

Core strength matters, but the perpetual shortening of muscle strands is understated. If you're just standing on two feet, strong core won't keep your hips from being tilted back involuntarily, ime. Not how I got rid of the problem.

How did you evaluate your posture? Did you hire a trainer?

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