Ask HN: My country is getting worse. Where to go? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: My country is getting worse. Where to go?

46 pointsrichsaunders63 comments

I am 20 y.o, I live in Indonesia. I don't know what's going on with my country, but it looks like everything is getting worse. I don't see a bright future here, so I am looking for a better country. I am willing to move abroad.

The problems are, I don't know where to go, and how much does it cost. Right now, I have around $1,000 in my bank account. It's all the money that I save from my job.

Unfortunately, I don't have any degree. I am a high school graduate. But I'm good at design and good enough at front-end dev. I am also into fitness, I workout alot, mostly calisthenics.

I'm thinking about to move to Canada or Japan. But I don't think I have the money. Probably some of you can help me. I just want to get out. Where to go? Thank you!

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As other posters have pointed out, getting to another country is likely to be very difficult for you right now so my advice is to think about what you can do where you are to improve your situation.

It seems to me that the answer to your problems is money. Yes, I know that can seem obvious but if you have a goal to earn western wages while living on Indonesian costs you should be able to save a fair bit.

This means you could try freelancing your front-end dev skills out to western clients. There are lots of platforms out there where you can do this.

Alternatively look for a remote only job as these are becoming more and more popular and front-end development is a highly desired skillset.

Thinking outside the box a bit, if you're willing to stay put a little while longer you could potentially build software products, such as WordPress plugins and use a platform like Codecanyon to sell them.

Or if you'd rather use your fitness interest/skills why not consider setting up some kind of bootcamp class? You could create a course on bookmartialarts.com (or similar) that is tailored to foreigners that want to come work out in another country? With your development skills you'd likely have an edge with marketing it and making it look very professional.

You've got a tough but not impossible road ahead of you. Good luck!

I agree with most of this, but if you like programming and front-end development, I would suggest you focus on getting REALLY good at that first. Optimize for learning and master your craft. If you become among the top 5% - 10% of front-end devs in Indonesia by the time you're 30, you will have many options.

I would get some formal computer science education while working for a startup where you can get relevant experience with modern technologies and improve your team-work skills. Don't optimize for money now, optimize for mastery. Fortunately, software development is among the most lucrative professions on the planet and you like it.

Fast-forward 5-10 years and your chances of landing a great job in US, Canada, etc would be dramatically improved. Many experienced React Devs make 90,000/year+ in the US [1].

* EDIT: also, if you want to work in an English-speaking country, mastering the English language would help too (you may already have this ability).

Good luck! You got this!

1. https://stackoverflow.com/jobs/salary/results?l=United+State...

What about the Netherlands? The country has, for reasons you will be well aware of, a sizeable Indonesian population, albeit mostly consisting of people who moved from Indonesia before or around the beginning of the republic. It will be easy for you to get acclimatised there (apart from the weather that is but given that you mention Canada as an option the Netherlands should not be a problem here). It is one of the most 'advanced' countries in the world in many ways, things generally work the way you'd want them to. Everybody speaks English and using English in the workplace is quite common, especially in the IT sector.

What is your thinking behind "the country is getting worse?" What is the threshold between "it is bad but ill carry on" and " I need to move out?" What are the factors?

Genuinly interested as these types of decisions are immensly interesting.

Reasons why I am thinking my country is getting worse:

1) Currency. Its value just keep sinking.

2) Safety. What I fear the most is terrorism. There are a bunch of people in the name of religion doing scary things at night just because they think you're wrong. But cops don't care. I honestly never saw cops fight those people. It's scary.

3) Government. Something is wrong here. Even if next year we will have a presidential election, I don't think it'll make things better.

1. You can use this to your advantage. You can set a lower bid online freelance work. As long as you can get paid in US$ and convert it, you will be making more money than if you moved.

2. Can't help you there.

3. This is a problem pretty much all over. Everyone has a different opinion about it,but I believe globalization has caused a dramatic increase in competition, which creates stress, leading people to act irrational and short sighted. Cooler heads will prevail.

I'm not trying to convince you to stay, just to use what resources you do have.

I have travelled in Indonesia and I'm Canadian. I've worked in tech for a long time and I've lived in Japan. I've met an engineer from Indonesia who immigrated to Canada about 10 years ago.

So, a few things. Indonesia has progressed very well over the past 20 years and that is likely to continue. From a low base though.

Between Canada and Japan, Canada is a better choice unless you already speak Japanese. Japan is not fond of foreigners while Canada is full of foreigners.

You can apply directly to immigrate to Canada. There's a "point system" that determines if you qualify. Your English seems to be very good so that's a big thing in your favour. No university degree is a big impediment.

It can be very difficult to get a first job in Canada when you don't have experience.

It seems to me that Singapore might be a better option. At least in the short term. Pay is higher than in Canada or Japan, Singapore is desperate for immigrants and it's right next door.

All this is true, but as someone who moves to Canada, I’d encourage you to have a plan for housing. Big cities are tough, and $1000 is barely enough for a month of renting a room (if you can find one that is). You’re probably going to be asked for first and last months rent upon lease signing, so you’ll need a minimum of $1500 just to live for your first 30 days, assuming you can quickly earn money to eat. I also think Canada requires proof of funds up to something like $5000 CAD (although I’ve never been asked, or known anyone that was asked).

You seem smart and honest and I hope it works out for you. I also feel that my country is getting worse, and I also don't know where to go, but I live in a "first-world" country (UK) and have relatively high wealth for my age thanks to starting my own company 7 years ago (when I was in my early 20s) and having decent luck with it. But I also want to get out, and some facts about my life and minority status make it quite difficult to know where I will be physically safe and generally happy. Just wanted to share a similar perspective from a very different situation.

Egocentric :D

I'm not an expert on this, but I heard once that even foreigners can get free college tuition in Germany. That might be wrong or inaccessible to you for some reason, but I think leaving your country by attending college would be ideal.

This is correct. You have to get admitted first of course.

To be allowed to enter the country you still have to prove that you can sustain yourself. That means a scholarship or a bigger pile of cash.

Yes, that's an option.

You need a student visa or some of type of residence permit, though. If you're eligible depends on your country of origin. You also have to prove you'll be able to sustain yourself during your stay.

It's obviously temporary. Once you've finished your studies it's usually assumed that you return to your home country, unless you manage to find work with a local company, that is. The latter potentially opens up the opportunity for naturalisation or a permanent leave to stay.

Running a business might work, too but probably is more difficult because you'd have to prove that you're able to provide for yourself, which can be hard when just starting out. Still, there are options and special programmes for high-tech entrepreneurship.

Second hand knowledge, but I seem to think it was free for Germans, and they're expected to stay in the country something like 4 years after finishing.

Can confirm that there is no residency requirement tied to this. Universities are just public institutions here.

Not sure about tuition for foreign students.

I think you can move to Canada to purse a course in a community college. Not a degree but a 2 year course. Can you get a loan from your home contry ? If so you can move to Canada spend 2 years studying/earning and you will be set. You will have to take a loan to cover your airfare and first semester college fees. Worth exploring I suppose.

> Purse a course in a community college.

It sounds interesting. How do I do that? Can you explain a bit more?

I don't know much but a rudimentary Google led me to this college of Rockies. There might be others like this. GOod luck !

http://www.cotr.bc.ca/programs/

Get a college degree, preferably in CS or engineering. It’s almost definitely cheaper for you to do that in Indonesia than in any other country you might be interested in, and having that credential helps you in visa and job applications.

Once you have the degree, work for a while to build up more savings. How you do this is up to you, but you’ll need a lot more than $1000 to get yourself established in a developed country.

Once you have the money, you will be eligible for many more visa programs than you are currently. One common “backdoor” route is to get a master’s degree using a student visa that allows you to work in the country for a period of time afterwards. The US OPT[1] program is the one I’m familiar with, but there similar systems in other countries. It’s much easier to get employers to sponsor you for visa programs if you’re already working in the country.

Also, you should apply for the US Diversity Visa[2] program every year. It’s an extreme long shot, because there are so many more applicants than spots, but you never know.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optional_Practical_Training

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_Immigrant_Visa

You should be able to work as a freelancer until you've saved enough to go abroad. Or maybe go abroad to a low cost location (Chang Mai, ...) and freelance from there. There are a few websites that would help you find freelance (gig economy) work (15 freelance sites listed here https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/245953).

If you're really, really smart you might be able to get a full college scholarship somewhere.

There's Ecole 42 in Paris (also Silicon Valley) that's tuition free. "No degrees or special skills are required to apply, and those who are accepted attend for free for three to five years. Around 80% of students get jobs before they finish the course; 100% are employed by the end." https://qz.com/1054412/a-french-billionaires-free-teacher-le.... But Ecole 42 is hard to get into. And Ecole 42 might only accept French students. (The answer is an email away.)

Like many things in life, it can be solved with money. So:

1. become a really good front-end developer, do remote work. Be very professional about it. You'll start making good $$$.

2. Search HN for tips on remote/contract work, there's a whole lot of wisdom about it.

3. Once you start making >$3 k/month, a lot of possibilities open up, including some EU countries. You can get a student visa, and running your own business also might be a possibility.

4. You might be able to study in EU right away. Make a list of universities you're interested in, email each and every one of them, asking if you can become a student and if there's a scholarship that might be available to you. I know a few people who did this successfully with very little of their own money.

Throw away account.

There are a lot of great opportunities for great front-end and designer in US/Canada. However, the biggest thing against you will most likely be your accent and your english. People won't tell you straight in your face, but unless you can communicate very fluidly you'll have a hard time finding a full-time job.. even more if working remotely.

I don't know how good is your english/accent, but I'd recommend taking english lesson with someone that could teach you how to improve your accent. IMHO that will yield SO MUCH more opportunity than learning another web framework .

While learning that, I'd recommend picking a modern web framework and getting really good at it. I.e. React/Redux/Graphql/html/css.

Once you have your english communication + base front-end knowledge, apply to startup that offer visa. Startups are great because they often can't pay a huge salary so they need to be more creative and give more chance to people with different background. I wouldn't be too picky about the startup vision or whatever, as long as they have cash in the bank, aren't toxic and can help you move.

Once you've moved and landed a job, keep learning and improving in your spare time, stack cash, and after 1-2 years, feel free to move to better company.

But again, the strong accent / bad english is what will most likely make it very hard so I'd invest in that first.

Are you kidding me? I barely speak english (native speaker) and I didn't have that much trouble landing a gig. Most people are willing to ignore most of the nonsense I speak as long as I produce a bit of work now and again.

You probably read a lot about that 90% of the start-ups fail. So consider your options and propabilities of success.

a) Try to legally migrate to a first world country. Given your background the chances are very slim. Your best chance is probably to find a western partner willing to marry you.

b) Illegally migrate to another country. This is very difficult for the countries you mentioned because you have to cross an ocean. Illegal immigration into Europe is possible but 1,000 USD is not enough. From what I read you would need about 10,000 USD. It also comes with certain risks. About 0.1-3% of the migrants die during the journey depending on the route. Many get abused on the way. Do you want to play this kind of Russian roulette? Assuming that you have the money and you are willing to take the risk, your chances are not that bad, probably above 30% to make it within a year. If you make it, a lot of things will be better, but a lot of other things will be much worse than you expect. Your chances to be better off than the median are very slim. Most likely you will be sourended by 90% people being better off than you. If you work hard, chances for your children are much better though.

c) Migrate within your country to a better comunity. This should be feasable, even though you seem to have only about a few month of savings. Maybe you find a better comunity in your own country? This has many advantages over above options. You stay within your own language and culture, you can continue to use your existing network and you can easily reverse your move if the new community turns out worse than expected. I would assume, this option has the highest success rage. If you succeed here another option may open at a later point with higher success probabilities.

I am not thinking about starting a business or founding start-up. I just want to move to a better place. I honestly don't like my country.

> b) Illegally migrate to another country.

Well, I don't want to break the law. If I have a chance I want to move legally. But as you can say, given my background the chances are very slim.

> c) Migrate within your country to a better comunity. ... If you succeed here another option may open at a later point with higher success probabilities.

I think this is what I am going to do. I don't know how long does it take to make enough money to get out of here, but I'm going to try.

I actually run a small printing business where I make enough money. The bad news is, I don't have any machine or employee, so if I am moving to another city, it'll be hard for me to run my business. The good news is all my customers are coming from the internet, we never meet, and they do repeat order.

Thank you for your reply!

I can simpathise with your desires and calculations - I’ve been there myself. While the country I’ve lived in (part of the USSR) was not that bad, back when the change was happening it really felt like the only rational decision was to flee west.

Due to some unfortunate buerocratic mishaps I was forced to stay. And 20 years later here I am - still in the same country, while companies are offering me to relocate and help me with legal expenses.

After travelling a bit abroad and seeing how life is in the countries I wanted to live in, I know have the feeling thet they all have their own problems, and you get to a pretty awesome standard of living if you stay at your unexpensive place, but get a decent european/american salary. And its totally possible with remote work nowadays.

And while I still think my life would have turned out better if I was able to emigrate back in the day, life here has gotten noticably better, a lot of expats are returning and bringing the culture I desired to be a part of here.

So yeah even if you don’t manage to get out, you can still sharpen your skills, and get to work for some first world companies with a great compensation. And with not that much money, even the lousiest places can be a great place to live.

I would add, if you remain in your home country, and you aren’t that confident in that countries’ future, keep your extra earnings in foreign currency and assets. That way, you can hedge against getting screwed in the event of a currency crises or revolution. I have contract workers all over the world and I encourage them to do this.

> Keep your extra earnings in foreign currency and assets.

Can you give me an example? Like what kind of assets?

How does one run a printing business without any machines? Print brokering? Seems like you could do that from anywhere, and not having equipment to move might be an asset rather than a liability.

> How does one run a printing business without any machines?

I don't have any printing machine. I got all my customers from the internet, so basically we never met. When my customers place orders (from WhatsApp), I would print their orders from a company who actually have a printing machine, then I just sell it more expensive to make profits.

I already do this for about a year now. I went from $100 to $1,000 saving. Which is pretty good money in this country, I can live with that for 5 months.

> Seems like you could do that from anywhere.

Yes, the problem is I need to find another printing company that doesn't cost too much. I'm already thinking about this actually.

I don't mean to detract from the general value of this comment, but a nitpick...

> Your chances to be better off than the median are very slim.

Chances to be better off than the median are exactly 50%.

As an illegal immigrant? That seems like it could be a considerable disadvantage.

> Chances to be better off than the median are exactly 50%.

No, if a sample size of monthly salaries is: $1k, $3k, $4k, $10k, $12k

The median is $4k. Achieving better than that may indeed be a slim chance if it represents a level up in seniority. Your background and skills matter.

Also, in this sample size, only 40% are above median. If you measure everyone salary to the dollar, it will approach 50% but never get there. In fact above median will always be < 50% by definition.

$1k, $3k, $4k, $10k, median is $3.5k, with exactly 50% being above, and exactly 50% being below. The same happens with any sample with an even number.

$1K, $1K, $1K, $10K...

Which is what most national income distributions look like. With the vast majority making below or well below the median income. Hence the fuss about the 1% controlling so much wealth.

Well, my series above is a degenerate case.

> With the vast majority making below or well below the median income.

In any case, it's mathematically definitionally impossible for the vast majority of any population to be making less than the median of that population. (It is possible with respect to the average, of course.)

(Even in the above (degenerate) case, there is no member of the series with less than the median value of $1K.)

https://www.ft.com/content/022de0a4-54f4-11e7-9fed-c19e27000...

> Up to three quarters of Germany’s refugees will still be unemployed in five years’ time

Conditional probabilities matter.

If you were selecting randomly from the population, yes.

OP would have significant disadvantages that would make them likely to be below the median.

I pointed it out because the post doesn't make it clear what the sentence means. "The median" is undefined, and to get the implied meaning, there's only one reference: the group of people including the OP. Obviously, it doesn't make sense in this context, but it's never clarified.

Actually, your post also doesn't specify that: median of what group?

a1) Legally migrate to a better not necessarily first-world country (near Indonesia, the Philippines and Thailand come to mind; further away, South American countries might be interesting, like Panama, Argentina, Chile; not sure how feasible that is, but Singapore would be an amazing option). That will allow you to earn/save more money, learn more useful skills, and upgrade your CV to improve your chances of migrating again to an even better country.

From what I have read about Japan, it is a deeply tribalist and racist country with extensive government controls that has led to nearly 3 decades of continuous stagnation. I would not move there. I could be completely wrong and do not have first hand experience with that culture.

Have you considered Singapore or Hong Kong?

I am actually considering Singapore. Not sure with what I am going to do. Probably just make more money as fast as I can.

$1,000 won't get you far. That's less than a month's rent for a studio in Toronto for example. Also I'm pretty sure both Canada and Japan have pretty strict immigration laws. If you want to migrate you should figure out realistically what your opinions are. That includes legal and budget restrictions.

If you're a good front-end dev, try remote work as others suggested. It's probably your best bet to gather some money and grow from there on. If higher education is free or affordable in Indonesia, I'd suggest going there to study first and get yourself a degree. This will make everything, including migration, much easier in the future.

You could try to get sponsored by an employer. We've had two or three folks start out in different countries come to the US through our company. Each started as a contractor and became an employee. I'm not sure the success rate of this technique.

Are you referring to H1Bs or a different Visa? I couldn't even get an H1B from inside with a sponsor due to the lottery. Damn the "RNG."

It was probably that, yeah. We actually had a guy who came over from singapore. He was here. Then something came up with it and they deported him. It took like a year or two for him to win the lottery to get back into the states. Crazy.

Before thinking to move abroad. Are willing to move to another city? Try balikpapan or makassar. Indonesia is vast, there are many opportunities in another cities if willing to search for jobs.

For cost of living, check out https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living

From Indonesia to the Netherlands:

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?cou...

If you're getting a job there, the numbers won't be as important.

Why not get involved in your country's politics and try to make it better? Running away from problems whatever they are just helps the bad guys, but be warned, you will pop up on your security services radar, so everything like your school reports, your health records, anything documented by the state or in the public domain like facebook will be used to build up a psychological profile and this could then be used against you, if your remit is different to their remit like protecting a country's GDP or current political leaders. The good thing about this, is foreign intelligence will also like to you use like a pawn to help further their own foreign policy interests and global criminals may also like to use you for their own ends as well. So be careful if you do decide to get vocal, I know I've had it done to me as well.

You could try getting a degree in one of the central European universities. Total cost for 3 years should be a fraction of what you need to pay in northern America. Getting a work permit is also ten times easer.

I imagine getting a degree in Indonesia itself would be much cheaper, and having that degree would then make moving to another country much more viable.

Try to connect with recruiters from Europe via LinkedIn. If you are good enough frontend developer or designer, some large companies will be willing to help you get work permit and assist you with relocation. Just ask. The fact that you don't have a degree, especially as a frontend developer, is not a problem in most of job offers for frontend developers. Western Europe and Eastern Europe offer similar pays for developers, so it's not like you have to go to England or Germany. Try Estonia, Poland, Czech Republic, or Romania.

Consider including an email or other contact info here or in profile, some may want to help you but not publicly.

Try and find or do remote work.

i cant say i can recommend the UK! also you may find Japan a little difficult for now, it can be particularly difficult to get a visa there although it is supposedly being relaxed soon

Would highly suggest that you marry a foreigner somehow, work as a dishwasher or cookor busboy in an expensive restaurant. save a ton of money.

Good luck!

Why not try to move to another city? Bali maybe?

I m going to sounds more philosophical but, please hear me out. Recently I heard the quote somewhere " the only zen you get at the top of a mountain is the one you bring along". Similarly if you are not happy with your OWN country then you will never be happy anywhere in the world. Everything is getting worst. You are better off where you are and work hard to make a content life there. I have spent 10 years in a first world country and came by to my third world country 10 years back and I am happy.

"If you can't be happy in Somalia you won't be happy in France."

Right.

How about 'When you climb shit mountain to get a rose from the top, it still smells like shit.'

I'm sure Indonesia would also be a much nicer place to live with 10 years of Western savings in the bank.

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