Business networking for nerds (2017) | Hacker News Reader

Business networking for nerds (2017)

benjaminreinhardt.com

157 pointsOlshansky76 comments

I've recently returned to professional programming after working in another profession for 10 years. My former profession (let's call it "medical transcription" for the sake of my anonymity) is a dying profession, and is being replaced by a combination of technology and global outsourcing.

Now, with relatively few exceptions, the only people who can actually make a good living at medical transcription are the master networkers and salespeople. And even though they present themselves as being "successful" at making a good living at medical transcription, what they really are making money doing is selling courses and books to people who want to get into the (dying) profession. Of course, they never mention to those people that it's increasingly difficult to make a decent living at medical transcription.

This isn't the first time I've watched social butterfly networkers and salespeople take advantage of people and engage in ethically dubious conduct, so I have a bad taste in my mouth regarding networking. I'm also an introvert, so I'm naturally very bad at networking.

That said, I also realize that I could be doing much better financially and professionally if I had a strong network of friends and colleagues, particularly as I'm starting at a new profession in my 40s.

It's frustrating.

EDIT: Changed a few sentences to make it clearer that the dying profession I'm referring to isn't programming.

I have not had the same experience as you have. Maybe it depends on the city? In the Bay Area hardcore engineering is still in enormous demand. I had expected automation and the cloud to reduce the demand for engineers, but it’s actually increased the demand for engineers familiar with cloud technologies.

I was unclear. The profession I'm talking about is not related to engineering. However, I don't want to be more specific because the profession in question is fairly unusual and I don't wish to identify myself.

Think of how much society is set back because people who have no interest or ability with "networking" aren't given the opportunities that they should have had. Instead, we end up with the most socially aggressive / self promoting running practically everything (badly).

If you call it 'networking' it sounds bad.

If you call it 'getting out there and speaking to people, listening to what their problems, hopes, opinions are, and sharing the same yourself and making a connection to see if you can mutually help each other' then it suddenly sounds like a better thing, doesn't it?

Hmm, not really.

Everyone should just work in isolation right? Nobody needs any help or to share any ideas or problems?

This isn't about working, it's about getting together in cliques to decide who should be offered the best positions, based on mostly irrelevant personality factors.

Networking isn't talking to people about important things. It's talking to people with the specific goal of moving your career forward. That's what makes chronic networkers insufferable, and those people give networking a bad rap.

> Networking isn't talking to people about important things. It's talking to people with the specific goal of moving your career forward.

If that's what you think networking is, I can't imagine that you're getting great results. Are you?

For about a year, I smoked cigarettes. Taking a smoke break with your boss, and their boss, is one way to be noticed, stick out from the pack, and advance your career. Other methods are healthier.

At my former job, you could always tell who'd get the promotions by who smoked with who. It sucked, as a non-smoker, but I eventually fell into the habit of going out with them while they smoked and just talking.

I wonder if anyone would notice if you 'smoked' an inert substance in a vape pen?

Healthier example: I met my boss doing group trail runs.

The way you move your career forward is by talking to people about important things and providing some kind of value to the people you are talking to -- if networking with you does not benefit other people, they won't do it!

The motivation may be self-serving, but the outcome is that you help others while you help yourself.

I network all the damn time. I talk to people. I get lunch with new people who I don't know (there's a standing invite in my HN profile for a reason). I don't have some Specific Goal of Moving My Career Forward. I like people, I like meeting people, I like learning about them, and in the future maybe I'll do them a solid or they'll do me one.

It pays off, though. And it's fun.

But I have never started a conversation (at least, not with somebody I didn't already know well, like my boss) with the Specific Goal of Moving My Career Forward.

If that's what you think networking is, you're missing out.

Small note on that one: you probably want to include an e-mail in your about field.

I have and don't receive much spam.

No? Good to know. I'll do that. Thanks.

No, that is what makes bad networkers insufferable.

Really, when you network the goal should be to share and absorb information about who is doing and interested in what. Some time, which may be anywhere from milliseconds to decades, you might remember somebody who is going to benefit from that connection (could be you, could be somebody else, could be the person you talked with) and so you suggests the parties meet.

The people you complain about, and I agree with you 100%, are those who are focused on a particular goal, in the short term.

Human connections are like any other investment, if you try to get results this quarter, you will ruin everything. If you can wait ten years, you can get the world...

Networking is about give and take, providing value and making connections.

I don't want to reply to every single reply here, so I'll clarify here.

I'm not trying to say networking is cold and calculating, or it's bad or whatever. There are 2 points I'm trying to make:

1. Networking isn't inherently about important things, and talking about important things isn't necessarily networking. "What kind of embedded database do you use for that?" can be a great networking question, and maybe it's interesting and relevant to your job, but it isn't necessarily the most important thing to you. Asking "what happens when we die" is generally not a good networking question. I just don't think defining networking as "talking about important things" is correct.

2. People who try very hard at networking to get themselves ahead, with no concern for others, are annoying. Maybe "chronic networkers" is the wrong way to put this, and I don't have a good way to describe it. But sometimes people give off a vibe that they just want to leech off of other people and learn their names so they can ask for a favor later. I'm complaining about the phonies who talk like manipulative car salesmen, not the amicable people who want to meet at coffee shops to chat and talk shop.

Is it though?

If you look at a less "localized" instance: Donald Trump arguably won the election because he was actually more in tune with the dissatisfaction of a significant portion of America than pretty much all other political candidates.

Sure, this might not be for the benefit of America in the long run, but the idea that unimportant things made a man president of the United States is ridiculous.

The key points he built his campaign on are obviously very important to many people, and a political campaign is just networking at scale (like any other advertisement).

That's silly. Skill acquisition is important for everyone.

You know how in Pokemon they keep on teaching you "don't tackle your problems alone, learn to depend on your friends?" That's what networking is.

That approach requires learning to make friends in the first place. I don't naturally tend to talk to people in that mode. I find most "social" spaces disorienting and exhausting to be in for more than a few minutes; when I do convince myself to go to a party or other social gathering, I tend to get conversation-starters along the lines of "are you okay?". The very few actual friends I've had in my life have mostly been others who are socially awkward, and none of those relationships are still active because either my family moved or theirs did.

That is to say: I think there's a lot more variation in this space than most people are prepared to acknowledge.

It isn’t. Someone I know (who hired me at one of my jobs) is an expert with people. He’s had many Successful exits and somehow always has a team that loves to work for him that’s great at their job. Knowing him has led to me discovering way more teams I could work with.

It’s great and very helpful to people like me - who are less effective at building that network of people. I think it’s great these people exist. They’ve been a multiplier on what I can do.

So the degree of success of your career may be entirely due to your luck in meeting a person like that. It doesn't seem very efficient, from the point of view of getting the right people into the right positions.

There’s no way around it without an oracle ranking us all at our suitability for a job, unfortunately, and I would question the ability of such a thing to exist, never mind the ethics.

Something has to connect people with various skills and I trust people to do this better than anything to be honest. I would imagine that it would be a false efficiency for something else to happen. The number of charlatans in the world is too high and without human filtering I would never participate.

>It doesn't seem very efficient

It actually isn't. Which is exactly the reason networking is emphasized so much. You generally have to meet many people, with virtually no way to reliably prescreen them to get any benefit out of it. If it were a lot more efficient, it would be a lot easier and there wouldn't be a need to heavily emphasize it.

It works both ways. Society would be better off if some of the people who have no interest in networking accepted it as a necessary evil and learned how to do it.

You have really misunderstood society.

Nobody is "given" these opportunities by some Opportunity Santa. Those who go out and search for opportunities find, create and take them.

It's not a misunderstanding, I'm asking if that's the best way to achieve optimal results. How many social problems are caused by people not being offered opportunities for spurious reasons?

>Think of how much society is set back because people who have no interest or ability with "networking" aren't given the opportunities that they should have had.

Your frustration is likely borne out of the assumption that people deserve all those opportunities.

So true. Seems like this situation has haunted humanity for thousands of years.

Maybe I've been going to the wrong events, but I've never gone to a networking event where I made a contact with whom I ever had contact for a third time. Extremely rarely would I have contact for a second time. Well... no, sometimes I'd see them at additional networking events.

I've stopped going to networking events to network. Usually, I won't go if the sole focus is networking. If there's another purpose that's the primary purpose, I might go, depending on what that is.

Edison, EINSTEIN, and Musk?? You think that "general relativity project" would never have gotten off the ground without some solid networking skills by Al? Or developing quantum theory from a Swiss patent office? Maybe go with Edison Jobs and Musk instead.

Actually Einstein was great at reaching out to others in the field and discussing ideas with them. He also voraciously applied to various programs to find great places to work.

He’s no Edison in terms of networking, but it is interesting that even a cononical super-nerd creating theories in their basement (or patent-office) still gets value out of it.

This. The entire progress of science happened because illuminaries and savants started sharing their discoveries and discussing them in groups. There was an enormous amount of individual work involved as well, of course, which was the main element, but without the networking part to vet and discuss the result science would really not have happened.

Misread as 'Networking for Hackers' and thought finally going to learn more about networking.

Me too. I know I'm a nerd now...

I'm one of those people who hug their glass of water, finds a cozy (i.e. devoid of people) corner, and pretends something is very important in their phone. The few contacts I had from those events were never helpful, and I'm not a kind of person to keep an Excel and reach out to people on schedule pretending I care. (I understand there are people who do care, I'm just not this type.)

I found the best way for me to meet new people is... smoking a pipe. It's a greatly enjoyable hobby by itself, and it always draws people at least to comment on the smell or ask me something like "hey, where do you get this stuff?" (I'm in China and naked tobacco is illegal here... go figure). Once the ice is broken, I feel much better about having a conversation. It also helps that most people who are interested in the pipe are somewhat relatable.

I've found the biggest issue for me to be finding places to network. I'm currently an educator (want to shift careers) and don't live in a city, which means my options are limited. I love going out and meeting new people and learning about them, though, so I wish I could find a place to do this.

This was very reasonable and well written.

'Keep it short and sweet' or 'minimize friction' if I were to summarize it.

I don't know that there are excellent ideas with solid execution that go to the graveyard, because nerds just couldn't network their way to the top however.

There has never been a better time for intelligent, hard working people to see their ideas come to fruition. There is all sorts of infrastructure in place to help you - schools, loans, accelerator programs like Y Combinator, the internet!

While I don't want to minimize the value of having social skills for your relationships with your loved ones if nothing else - it is important to know who are and bet on your strengths, there's plenty of infrastructure to fill in the gaps.

I'm not sure how I feel about networking but I really like the part about meeting arrangement (Pre-Meeting Motions). It's amazing how drawn-out meeting scheduling can get if you are not proactively concrete about it. I don't usually do calendar invites, though, and that is actually a good idea. I had it happen when we agreed on a date and time, but then they thought it was a different day of the week for some reason.

Although I know many people hate the book, but Keith Ferrazzi's "Never Eat Alone" is well worth reading - both for the practical tips, but also for the attitude one should adopt while networking (the more you care about others, the more they are likely to help you).

Are there any other sites/blogs that talk about professional communication like this? I found this very clear and helpful, while a lot of other sites I’ve read are either overly generic or focus on what not to do.

When meeting someone at at an event or conference, what is the best way to exchange details? Does one need a business card, or do we just give a Twitter/Facebook id, or a email address or phone number etc?

The article seems to miss the key way to succeed at networking: help as many people as you can before asking for help.

I liked the "projection" thing. Seems very true and effective.

"Do I need to bring a table or just my computer?"

She stared. "What?"

"I have a 21 inch monitor and I can bring a folding table," I said.

Still clearly confused, she asked, "Why would you bring a computer?"

Oh, that kind of networking party. "Never mind."

- a true story from university

This hurts how relatable this is.

Yeah I was really hoping computer networking when I opened this and was sorely disappointed.

Huh, I always knew them as LAN parties, and before LANs as gaming or computer parties.

Am I the only person who clicked the link hoping to read about the OSI 7 layer model?

Same.

Same, I wouldn't have clicked otherwise, kinda proves the article's point :)

Yeah, sucker punched. I wonder how many people upvoted this prior to reading the article... and then had upvote regret.

I was hoping for something new BGP related.

This is the common sentiment in this thread lol, is there a canonical reference for the other type of Networking(osi) for Nerds HN?

The Wikipedia articles are very good in terms of detail, but I didn't find them accessible. I thought about writing some more accessible ones for non-tech people after a request from a colleague for something even a manager could understand!

OOT but funny:

During uni time, a friend invited me and my other friend to a "networking event". Being computer science students, the two of us thought it's "computer networking". Heck, we just had Network 101 class the day before.

We asked the inviter, and he did confirm it (but smiled). When we reached there, I didn't see any computer stuff, but I saw grandparents, uncles and aunties (basically, people I wouldn't relate with computer). I thought, "Wow, this organizer really good at convincing computer illiterate people to learn about computer networks."

The first speaker showed up, enthusiastically greeting us out loud, "Good morning everyone!" (it was noon) and started talking about fulfilling your dreams and Ferraris.

My friend tricked us to a MLM event (we knew what MLM was, and not with a good reputation).

Cut story short, the inviter is no longer my friend.

I can attest to to his point about having a "story"; I have many skillsets (across several fields) and I went in to pitch for a position I could do in my sleep, and did not get the job. The last comment made by the owner of the company was "what job would we put you in?" and I replied, "it doesn't matter I can do every job in your organization." (having done every job prior in a similar organization, and demonstrated as such!).

They literally didn't hire me, because they couldn't figure out where I fit in their organization. Never mind the qualifications; never mind the ability, or the direct experience. They simply boggled, at where they could put me.

And its been repeated over and over. They aren't hiring people, they are hiring cogs. People like me, break their tiny worldviews, and they simply can't handle it. Its fucking retarded.

I had one guy I emailed, reply back "Sorry we're picking someone more qualified; 20 minutes into the work day", to which I replied "be fucking serious. I used to do this in the first 10 minutes of my day. whats the real reason?" He replied back "we don't think we could keep you." i.e. cog for 20 years needed.

When I started my career, I got fired from three temp jobs, for suggesting ways I could automate their entire process, and instead of it taking months, I could do it in under a week.

The whole employment racket, is bloody retarded.

Not every place seeks the jack-of-all-trades types of people. It isn't necessarily because of any dehumanizing train of thought, but more likely because of a more pragmatic one: they might not have the company structure to support people with those profiles and give them room to grow, to contribute in ways that are both nourishing for the company's and the employee's goals.

I find myself often drained by the type of situation you mention encountering (although I seem tot lack the self-confidence you are pushing there), but a recent experience has allowed me to see that some structures might theoretically want my profile but practically not be ready to embrace it. In a way, the interviews you encountered might be at places that are more realistic with their own skills and needs.

I do wish you the best in trying to find the right fit.

https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=18211529&goto=threads%...

> Not every place seeks the jack-of-all-trades types of people.

I'm not a jack of all trades. I'm a master of several. Difference.

And I pick up fields, psycho-quick. At expert levels.

I put out a full resume for a bit, and no calls. So I asked to sit down with one of the HR people, and go through the resume. About 10 seconds in I realize what the problem is. They thought I was lying on my resume (like people do this?).

So I suggested we go through it one-by-one and I could explain the circumstances behind each one. Which we did. At the end of it, they acknowledged it was all true after I gave them details on each one. :) Didn't get me the job. They hired h1b's.

> but more likely because of a more pragmatic one: they might not have the company structure to support people with those profiles and give them room to grow, to contribute in ways that are both nourishing for the company's and the employee's goals.

I've been autonomous on every job I've ever worked. And a direct report to the c-suite within weeks to a month. And I get shit done.

Most of the time I'm just filling in the CEO on what I did, where I'm going next, what possible problems there might be, and what dangerous situations I've encountered along the way (things that require executive attention). Also some business suggestions on where the company needs to go (once I clear out the low lying fruit). Whatever job title they hire me for is irrelevant.

> I find myself often drained by the type of situation you mention encountering (although I seem tot lack the self-confidence you are pushing there),

Eh. You get old enough, you know the score. Personally I consider it a plus to get rejected from a shit company. I'm skilled enough to want to work with the best, on the hardest problems.

> In a way, the interviews you encountered might be at places that are more realistic with their own skills and needs.

First company I worked for was a temp agency doing data entry. CEO of a 20 SBU international conglomerate came down to my desk (as a 17 year old) to ask me how I did my work (short story: I uncovered a catastrophic problem that would have killed their business in months). Been like that on almost every job I've been to.

It don't matter what industry you're in; it don't matter what your business is; it don't matter what your corporate culture is. I fix it. So long as your serious about your business (its not your personal piggy bank/fiefdom) i.e. you show up to work, same as me.

> I do wish you the best in trying to find the right fit.

Well thank you for your best wishes. :)

What kind of job would you and the parent poster recommend jack-of-all-trades people who just want to get things done apply to? Sales in some environments is ideal for this but for introverts?

I've found that the umbrella term "DevOps" carries a lot more than what most people might realize, creating an interesting space to solve problems that are about logistics, technicalities, human behaviour, communication, planning and execution of projects, etc.

YMMV, but I find that any "good" engineer can learn to excel where the need is, provided the structure is there to support and encourage such behaviour (which is easier said than done, and most often what you will get to judge when interviewing).

Perhaps you should start your own business if you can do every job.

Startup spooling no problem. But every business, needs capitalization proportionate to the scale. Therein lies the problem. I'm not hooked up with the right people, just the shit financiers. So looking at doing it off of positive cashflow (takes longer, since the working capitol comes out of the till).

Right now I'm doing consulting, but the service model, sucks (multipliers too high relative to the stagnant "wage growth"). Not a lot of people trying to grow their businesses (that have the cashflow to invest in their co's).

To be blunt, I'm actually looking at the weed market. They're going legal, investments minimal. But the price of weed is crashing, and theirs a supply glut coming down from Canada (where all the fin money is going). Short term its dead (fin money is basically capitalizing foreign producers due to the quasi-legal status), long-term its got excellent growth potential.

Everything about networking is shady and discriminatory. Networking should be made illegal.

you will not pry my cisco switches from my cold dead hands

Juniper switches are the only ones for me

Are you also advocating against the freedom of association then?

Without networking you might just end up with more nepotism.

Bad advice. Networking is a high cost low value activity. It’s a pre-internet strategy for building trust in the absence of information about competency. Today anyone can find anyone they’re looking for. Today on the internet there are many businesses and people who make money by amplifying others with new or novel things, or some value.

Just build things you care about and share your work online. Give it to the amplifiers and let them amplify. Good will come. In the internet age “networking” is for losers.

>Give it to the amplifiers ...

How are you supposed to meet these amplifiers then and get them to care about your work?

Email them. If it’s interesting they’ll amplify it. These people make their living be being “in the know” on all the great new stuff.

I hope all these downvotes came from people who are more successful than me.

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