Comment by raganwald | Hacker News Reader

Comment by raganwald | Hacker News Reader

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I like everything about your post except the bit at the end. It seems like those words are taking things personally. Look, I worked with ReallyBigCo, a B$44 business. They used Oracle. Java. SQLServer. .NET. And MUMPS. So I have PHP beat hollow for uncool technology. I'll say it again. MUMPS.

If their CTO and I traded jobs, I wouldn't rewrite everything in other languages. I'd continue to solve interesting problems and recruit the best people I could. But I wouldn't take it personally if some of the people in the marketplace chose to pass on solving interesting problems in our environment with our tool chain.

It's not personal when I pass on someone talented who isn't a fit for us, and it wouldn't be personal if someone else passed on working for us because our tool chain wasn't a fit for them. Unicorns and rainbows don't enter into it.

It's like.... Oh I don't know, perhaps it's like locating your office in Toronto instead of the Valley. Some applicants want to live and raise a family in Toronto, some want to be where the action is in the Valley.

We solve interesting problems all the time in Toronto. But no, I'm not opening an office in the Valley for those who want to live there, just as you aren't doing work in Python just because there are talented people who want to use it.

I can respect that while simultaneously respecting those programmers who give your job a pass because they don't want to work with your tool chain. Just one of those things.

I agree that the end bit might have come out a bit too personal. I wrote this after reading the excellent linked article and then seeing the first comment on HN which was

"Why not transition to a different language over time? One that more great programmers want to use?" which just isn't something you'd realistically do.

And then I thought about the fun we have here in the office and I thought about the nearly two hours of discussion I had with a fellow coworker about race- and lock free storage and merging of shopping baskets and it hurt me to think that people would throw all that away just because they don't like the language even though it was the only viable option when all of this started.

I might have been carried away.

So: Sorry. I didn't mean to insult anybody. I just think it's really shortsighted to judge a project, a team and a company based on the choice of language that might have been used at one time.

I'm leaving a PHP job soon to start a Ruby job. The language was not the decisive factor, but it was a factor - I wanted to move to Ruby at some point.

The company I'm leaving solves complex, interesting problems in solid PHP code. There are developers here who are a lot smarter than I am. So my attitude is far from "you guys suck" or "I'm better than you."

But when I look out over the programming landscape, I see a lot more energy and activity right now in the Ruby community. A lot more people building new things and inventing new best practices. This is a simplification, but it seems like great ideas come from Rails and move back to PHP eventually.

PHP jobs run the gamut from high-tech and awesome to grunt work. Rails jobs tend to be more cutting-edge, because the technology is newer and there's just more stuff happening there.

So for me, the question is this: if the Ruby / Rails community is the leading edge for new ideas, and the AVERAGE (not to say all) developer in that community is better, and the AVERAGE job in that language / framework is cooler, doesn't it make sense for me to move that way? All other things being equal, isn't that a good career move?

It isn't snobbery, it seems like the most pragmatic thing to do. This is on top of the fact that I genuinely like the Ruby language a lot more than PHP.

So I don't think you have to feel slighted personally. And I'd expect this cycle to repeat someday: there will be a lot of Ruby / Rails apps that need maintaining, and a lot of developers will prefer some hotter, newer thing. Just the way it goes. But it's nothing personal.

> And MUMPS

I just have to respond to the MUMPS bit, I thought I was the only person here that actually remembers the thing, let alone worked with.

The clearest experiences from my MUMPS days are the ones where I inadvertently wiped some string containing crucial functionality.

Two questions:

1) What is best for my business?

The answer may well mean sticking with a flawed technology that nonetheless is serving the business well. Remember there is still lots of COBOL chugging away.

2) What is best for me?

If it's my business, but I'm sick of PHP and would like to switch to Ruby, Lisp, Haskell, whatever, it might be better to sell the business and start a new one based on the new language, rather than risk a rewrite. Isn't that part of the freedom being a founder was supposed to buy?

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