All the more reason to move from Oracle's Java to MS's .NET Core. They're not the big bad evil company they once were (they can't afford to be today.)
I agree with you that they can't afford to be super evil, because they're not the only big fish anymore. They're actually not even the biggest one.
I think it's a bit too early to decide if Java or .Net Core is better placed for the future, though.
If Microsoft is a lawnmower that will chop your arm off if you put it in the wrong place, Oracle is a self-driving lawnmower that will hunt you down.
That will then litigate unless you already have a multi-year severed limb support contract.
With recent licensing changes to Java and microsoft's recent good behavior I have considered it myself.
Until the telemetry and data sent by MS software can realistically be turned off completely, they shouldn't get any kind of positive treatment.
In the latest release of VSCode getting to see the exact telemetry data sent got even easier and they even pointed it out in the release notes. (It is also easy to turn it off (see below). I haven't done it since the data I see are OK with me and I want to help the devs improve VSCode for me.)
> Until the telemetry and data sent by MS software can realistically be turned off completely, they shouldn't get any kind of positive treatment.
Another instance of this "all or nothing" attitude that we have here on HN (I guess it is legacy from Slashdot and Usenet).
Steps in the right direction should be praised. This holds true for pets, kids and grown ups and I think companies too.
You might not get a chance to reward the results you want if you cannot reward the steps to get there.
Edited to add the first quote and comment.
Edit 2: Turns out it is easy to turn off telemetry.
But I'd like Microsoft's reputation to be proportional to how objectionable it's behavior is.
For example, I don't want Microsoft's reputation to go from a C- to an A- because of this patent issue, when they continue to require telemetry in Windows.
We can agree on that.
GP however wrote (emphasis mine):
> they shouldn't get any kind of positive treatment.
MS adheres to GDPR regulations and has applied those protections to all users. You can opt out of telemetry, you can view what they've collected on you and delete it.
https://www.techrepublic.com/article/microsoft-extending-gdp...
I have Windows 10 installed with a local login. I don't have or want an online Microsoft account. It doesn't seem to be possible to disable telemetry in this case, or at least I haven't found out an (officially supported) way to do it.
Best information I can provide on limiting telemetry for the local logon scenario is here:
https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-10-feedback-diag...
I realize that setting it to 'basic' isn't going to satisfy the conspiratorial minded among us, but I will say that I, personally, have no qualms setting my machine to 'basic'.
More details, and instructions to disable via regedit following the instructions here:
https://www.windowscentral.com/how-opt-out-customer-experien...
That's ridiculous. There should be an obvious friggin question during install "Enable telemetry and data collection?" and if the answer is no... that's it. No telemetry or data collection gets done. Ever. End of story and question doesn't get asked again. Ever.
Any other approach is literally just weasel words trying to deceive people. "Just manually change this RegKey setting" is a good example.
If you want to downgrade/disable it, you follow the instructions in the links provided.
I understand that. I just want to stop sending data from now on.
> I realize that setting it to 'basic' isn't going to satisfy the conspiratorial minded among us
I want no private or personal data to be sent. Calling me "conspiratorial-minded' is simply wrong. There isn't a conspiracy that Microsoft is collecting data about Windows 10 machines; it's an admitted fact, it was never secret. And I would prefer not to send such data, but Microsoft doesn't want to give me that option.
There is no official information on what data is gathered under the Basic setting. The page you linked to has just one sentence, and it's very vague:
> information about your device, its settings and capabilities, and whether it is performing properly
"Information about your device" could cover a lot indeed. What information does this collect that's covered under GDPR? How has it changed, and will change, over time? Who has access to it? I don't know. That doesn't make me a conspiracy theorist.
I don't buy the Microsoft claim from the same page that "This is the minimum level of diagnostic data needed to help keep your device reliable, secure, and operating normally.". It can't be impossible for Windows 10 to be reliable or secure without sending data home. It's evidently not impossible for the Enterprise edition. I accept that this data helps Microsoft do these things, but it should still be my choice as to whether to send it or not, and my right to know what's included in it. And now the law says so too, at least in the EU.
The Dutch DPA already determined Microsoft to be in violation of the GDPR a year ago (https://autoriteitpersoonsgegevens.nl/en/news/dutch-dpa-micr...). I don't know about more recent developments there. But this isn't just a few private individuals' opinion.
> More details, and instructions to disable via regedit
Those are not official Microsoft instructions or documented settings. Windows updates have been known to revert them, and (separately) to require changes to the instructions. Messing with the Registry and disabling system services might have other effects beyond the desired. This is not a satisfactory solution, exactly because I do care about "keep[ing] your device reliable, secure, and operating normally".
Some other points:
> I want no private or personal data to be sent
I would say that none is sent on basic, but the definition of 'private or personal' is overloaded enough that we might disagree.
> Calling me "conspiratorial-minded' is simply wrong
Sorry, I didn't call you that, just a hypothetical broader population. Probably bad wording on my part either way.
> There is no official information on what data is gathered under the Basic setting.
There is. Lots more info here:
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/configure-w...
The best way to see what's gathered would be to sign up for an MSA, enable basic telemetry, and then go to the privacy account page and view it yourself.
> The Dutch DPA already determined Microsoft to be in violation of the GDPR a year ago
Not sure what to make of this since most US companies targeted compliance for May 2018, nor does that article mention the GDPR.
> Those are not official Microsoft instructions or documented settings.
Point taken, you're right :)
> I would say that none is sent on basic, but the definition of 'private or personal' is overloaded enough that we might disagree.
It's less about definitions, and more that I just can't be sure what exactly is sent.
> Lots more info here:
Thanks, that was informative. It seems they gather as complete a profile as they can of all my hardware and of the software they deem relevant (drivers, Microsoft apps) and its configuration. This is clearly enough for a globally unique fingerprint, many times over. (I don't know that they're building one, but they clearly can.)
The part that most worries me here is that at every point this doc says the list is inclusive, not exclusive. "The data gathered at this level includes". "Examples include". "Device attributes such as". There's no wording that I can see that would exclude anything at all that Microsoft might choose to collect now or later.
This holds for the Basic level, unlike the Enterprise-only Security level that explicitly says "No user content, such as user files or communications, is gathered" and "we take steps to avoid gathering any information that directly identifies a company or use". It's pretty clear that this doesn't hold for the Basic level. (Even if the purpose of gathering the data isn't to identify anyone.)
> nor does that article mention the GDPR.
You're right, it predates the GDPR and refers to a Dutch law. I was wrong to reference it and I'm sorry for muddying the discussion.
I read the Microsoft Privacy Statement (https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-US/privacystatement). It says:
> Many of our products require some personal data to provide you with a service. If you choose not to provide data necessary to provide you with a product or feature, you cannot use that product or feature
And then in the section on Windows:
> Rather than residing as a static software program on your device, key components of Windows are cloud-based [...] In order to provide this computing experience, we collect data about you [...]
It seems Windows is included in the statement that collecting personal information is mandatory and without it you "cannot use that product or feature". Although it's not explicit and so that may not be the intent for Windows - but it's not clearly disclaimed either.
Of course, any claim that collecting "Basic" data is truly required for Windows to work well is highly suspect because the Enterprise edition doesn't do it.
But OK, there's a "Learn More" link at the end of the Windows section that shows much more text. Unfortunately, while it includes many details, it also contains lots of inclusive statements. E.g., Activation is said to send "data about the software and your device" with no further explanation.
Bottom line: I would like to trust Microsoft (in this particular regard, at least). I think it's more likely than not that nothing terrible is going on. I think so because collecting data about me is not really part of Microsoft's business model, does not benefit them in any obvious way, and might harm them if it became known. But it would help a lot if Microsoft made a clear public statement (and put it in their contracts and EULAs), instead of all this "for example" wording.
Until the next update automatically re-enables it (and re-installs MS Paint and Candy Crush).
Forgetting to set DOTNET_CLI_TELEMETRY_OPTOUT=1 (or being unaware that you must set it) does not constitute consent.
Nor does anyone outside MS.
You don't need consent to store the shipping address of a customer and you don't need to consent to run basic analytics on your database to see what products are popular and how many customers you have. You also don't need consent to process the IP address in the TCP connection from the customer browser so you can show a website (though you do need consent if you log the entire IP for analytics purposes).
All "to provide you the best delivery service possible".
Yeah, right. That's completely above board. Suuuuuuure.
However, not all telemetry is like that, some telemetry does not inspect the inside of your house at all.
But in no way am I going to refrain from calling Microsoft a big bad evil company even today, after all these years. My comfort zone issues with Windows aside, their relentless vice grip on corporate and organizational IT with Office suite and especially 365, exchange email, Azure and especially Azure AD, traditional on-prem active directory and such is showing no signs of loosening.
Sure, they aren't Oracle but that's about the lowest bar you can clear in IT corporate ethics [insert cantrillian rant here]. I'd even be fine with letting go of the memories of 90s Microsoft's iron fist (easy for me, I'm too young to remember first hand) but MS of today is still too evil to deserve all the credit they're getting for being oh-so-wonderful nowadays. They absolutely can afford to be evil, just ask your sysadmin.
Not to be snark, but .Net is one of the most used development eco-systems [1]. Making the tech open-source and actively helping it run on other OS-es than Windows seems pretty valuable to me :). At least to me its very valuable.
[1] https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2017#technology