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Comment by arountheworld | Hacker News Reader

If you design your app properly you won't ever need to run SQL queries by hand. This is a bad practice and it is good that k8s discourages such behaviour. I agree with your other points though.

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SQL is too low level?! I don't think you understand what is going on with the tools you use.

He's advocating using ORMs rather than writing raw SQL queries

Okay, now what does Kubernetes have to do with ORMs? Why does it even have a say in what applications we're running on top of it? Am I missing something?

In another tangent, I still use raw SQL queries in most cases over ORM. That's just me. May be I'm a control freak or I just dont know how to magically use the abstraction of ORM and still get the most optimised results.

In a complex environment, that will not always work. We use an ORM at work for all simple CRUD stuff, but when you want something more complex and performant, we end up writing sql anyway.

(On a db the with millions of daily transactions)

I am not. I am sorry if that sounded ambiguous. By "By hand" I meant SSH into a container and then pasting raw query into SQL client. ORM will not always help you achieve what you want so writing queries is alright, but you need to have tests too. You can create a command for your app (like a Django command for example) that performs the query, but you also create tests that prove it is doing what you think it is doing. Then you run this command in the cluster. This way you can replicate it to different environments etc.

I am happy to write SQL, but you need to write it in such a way that you have tests confirming your query does what you intend to. Then run a query as a short lived application on the cluster. You don't need to SSH even for low level stuff. I am sorry if I didn't make it clear.

That a rather naive position. Over time one periodically needs to poke individual instances to see what's going on in them even if just to ensure consistency of what the aggregation sees vs what the instance is doing before destroying the instance one has logged into.

You have no idea what you're talking about to make a blanket statement like that.

I think you are confusing the experience as a user of the app (who shouldn't really ever touch SQL) and the experience of a developer (who should be knowing SQL inside out and using it in their day-to-day work).

"If you design your app properly" applies if you're talking about using k8s to deploy an app.

If you're doing individual development, however, it's quite likely that you're also doing development of the database, and need to do ad-hoc data analysis before you include those queries in that app.

Never needed to use SQL for debugging, or just generally checking that what you have in the database is what you expect?

"I have a problem doing X"

"Then don't do it. It only shows you're an idiot anyway."

Not a good answer.

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